Status Meetings:2007-09-26:Log

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[03:07am] You changed the topic to "http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2007-09-26:Agenda".
[12:00pm] mento joined the chat room.
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[12:04pm] ardissone|food: waiting on pink to come over, and hopefully smorgan to show up
[12:05pm] ss: pink's idle online...
[12:06pm] ardissone|food: ss!
[12:06pm] ss:
[12:06pm] ardissone|food: 
[12:06pm] ardissone|food:
[12:06pm] mento: while waiting, i'll read what smorgan did to the supdate doc
[12:07pm] smorgan joined the chat room.
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[12:07pm] mento: one to go
[12:07pm] ss: I was about to say "one down"
[12:07pm] ss: great minds
[12:08pm] mento: i've got larry david "curb your enthusiasm" glasses with a line drawn horizontally along the middle
[12:08pm] mento: below the line, it says "half empty"
[12:08pm] mento: and above the line, it says "half empty"
[12:08pm] ss: Haha
[12:09pm] ardissone|food: which one is "one to go" ?
[12:09pm] mento: the bottom one
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[12:15pm] ardissone|food: ok
[12:15pm] ardissone|food: we've waited 15 mins for prof pinkerton
[12:16pm] ardissone|food: everyone open http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2007-09-26:Agenda in your Camino
[12:16pm] ardissone|food: the 1.6 section is entirely the same
[12:17pm] ardissone|food: the new thing is we get to ask mento about breakpad for a1 
[12:17pm] mento: let's set some dates for a1
[12:17pm] mento: i bet my answer is "yes" though
[12:17pm] ardissone|food: sw update is currently the only blocker for a1
[12:18pm] smorgan: And we still need some answers about servers there
[12:18pm] ardissone|food: a1's a recusive rat's nest
[12:18pm] mento: right, i've got to talk to luser and bent
[12:18pm] mento: and the likes of them
[12:18pm] ardissone|food: ss is/was here today
[12:18pm] mento: i think they'll be happy to accommodate us at this point
[12:18pm] ss: I am.
[12:18pm] mento: but i'll confirm with them
[12:18pm] ardissone|food: so you can discuss ssl with him
[12:18pm] ss: Yeah, we'll be fine on their servers. I believe SeaMonkey is joining them.
[12:18pm] mento: what of ssl?
[12:19pm] ss: And if we're not, we have our own server we can use.
[12:19pm] ss: Whatever kind you'd like?
[12:19pm] ss: We've been offered free hosting and whatever we need.
[12:19pm] cl: oh, right, meeting.
[12:19pm] smorgan: mento: We want to serve all downloads for any update via https
[12:19pm] smorgan: So as to not have it be an internet-cafe-pwnage vector
[12:19pm] mento: smorgan: is that strictly necessary?  what if the updates are checksummed and only the checksum is delivered over https?
[12:20pm] ss: That's seems weird. We're not going to use the mirror network?
[12:20pm] ss: That would be expensive and overall suck on our end.
[12:20pm] mento: right
[12:20pm] ss: We can do it, but it's a pain.
[12:20pm] smorgan: That was the question
[12:20pm] smorgan: Or we can have the build machine sign the downloads
[12:20pm] smorgan: No idea how feasible that is
[12:20pm] ss: (I mean, it'd be free, but it'd be "expensive" as far as life goes.)
[12:20pm] mento: build machine signs and the user's client validates the signature?
[12:21pm] smorgan: Yes, Sparkle supports signed downloads for verification
[12:21pm] mento: the signature's metadata then, though, right?
[12:21pm] smorgan: It becomes part of the update manifest
[12:22pm] smorgan: That we clearly need to serve over https regardless
[12:22pm] mento: so we need to distribute our public key with the clients then, right?
[12:22pm] smorgan: Yes
[12:22pm] mento: that's fine
[12:22pm] smorgan: I didn't know how much pain would be involved in signing
[12:22pm] ss: We're just distributing the manifest over https then?
[12:23pm] smorgan: Sounds like
[12:23pm] ss: Sounds good
[12:23pm] mento: we can make tinderbox do whatever we want
[12:23pm] smorgan: k
[12:23pm] kreeger is now known as kreeger-away.
[12:23pm] mento: as long as it has a command-line interface 
[12:23pm] smorgan: Then we just have to be very careful not to lose the key 
[12:23pm] mento: ha
[12:24pm] smorgan: (Per the Sparkle docs; I found it amusing)
[12:24pm] ardissone|food: hehe
[12:24pm] mento: hah
[12:24pm] ardissone|food: so, does sparkle meet all of our needs then?
[12:25pm] ss: Sounds like
[12:25pm] smorgan: Assuming my plan for OS versioning works, yes
[12:25pm] mento: what's your plan for os versioning?
[12:25pm] smorgan: Dynamically set the manifest URL at each launch
[12:25pm] mento: there's an api to reset that, right?
[12:26pm] smorgan: And we maintain either a manifest per major OS break
[12:26pm] smorgan: yes
[12:26pm] mento: probably major os version + cpu arch
[12:26pm] smorgan: ?
[12:26pm] ardissone|food: for when we drop ppc?
[12:27pm] ss: Potentially, yeah.
[12:27pm] mento: at some point, we'll probably need to kill ppc
[12:27pm] mento: so we should have the cpu arch in there
[12:27pm] smorgan: wonders why we would need to kill ppc
[12:27pm] ardissone|food: have you not met Gecko? 
[12:27pm] mento: because apple's tools stop supporting it as a target
[12:27pm] mento: it won't be next year or anything
[12:28pm] smorgan: k
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: Gecko *looooves* to support only one Mac OS X version these days 
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: (anyway)
[12:28pm] smorgan: We probably want to have a little script that takes a few params and serves content appropriately
[12:28pm] mento: sure
[12:28pm] ss: Yeah, we probably do.
[12:29pm] smorgan: So we don't have to maintain the versions that are the same (10.4/10.5, ppc/i386, etc.)
[12:29pm] ss: Feel free to volunteer to write said script. 
[12:29pm] mento: no prob
[12:29pm] mento: moving on
[12:29pm] ardissone|food: so we should move forward with seeing about getting permission for landing it in the tree?
[12:29pm] mento: is mozUpdate out of the running at this point?
[12:29pm] mento: too complex/not enough doc?
[12:30pm] smorgan: mento: the plan was to use Sparkle if possible
[12:30pm] mento: right, i remember that
[12:30pm] mento: but your table has mozUpdate too
[12:30pm] smorgan: It's still an option if Sparkle falls through
[12:30pm] mento: all right
[12:30pm] ardissone|food: we wanted to compare
[12:30pm] cl: Be sure to use some sane update interval. Sparkle's default is 30 minutes.
[12:30pm] smorgan: I just donwanna 
[12:30pm] mento: i don't either 
[12:30pm] ardissone|food: it was going to have OmniSoftwareUpdate, too, if it hadn't vanished
[12:31pm] mento: who do they think they are, inventing their own archive format?  jeez!
[12:31pm] ardissone|food: remembers hearing that about our bookmarks plist  
[12:32pm] mento: plist already existed!  we just put bookmarks into it!
[12:32pm] mento: anyway, it's better than bookmarks.html 
[12:32pm] ardissone|food: so, what are our action items for swupdate?
[12:32pm] cl: notes that no one seems to be able to agree on exactly what the Netscape "bookmarks file format" really _is_
[12:32pm] ardissone|food: we had lots of conversation; let's summarize to get on the same page
[12:32pm] mento: needs to go to lunch now
[12:32pm] smorgan: ardissone|food: I write it, is certainly one
[12:33pm] ardissone|food: before that, get approval for the tree
[12:33pm] ardissone|food: but is there anything else before *that*
[12:33pm] ss: Can we estimate time so we can tell mento how long he has to for breakpad? 
[12:33pm] mento: yes, please
[12:33pm] ss: thinks mento likes working with a deadline.
[12:33pm] ardissone|food: tomorrow! 
[12:34pm] mento: it helps when you're managing several things
[12:34pm] cl: haha
[12:34pm] mento: ha
[12:34pm] smorgan: I'd love to say a few days, but with my recent availability I'm thinking a couple weeks is probably realistic
[12:34pm] mento: october 10?
[12:34pm] ardissone|food: can't wait to get rid of slow talkback
[12:34pm] smorgan: sure
[12:34pm] mento: smorgan, are you still interested in the breakpad ui?
[12:34pm] ss: Note that we'll have a release around the 16th, iirc.
[12:34pm] ss: 1.5.2
[12:35pm] smorgan: yep. I was going to ask you about the "extra information" file
[12:35pm] mento: that's fine
[12:35pm] ss: Sounds good
[12:35pm] smorgan: Is that going to be there, or it a firefoxism?
[12:35pm] mento: ok, we can talk about that a little outside of the meeting
[12:35pm] smorgan: k
[12:35pm] mento: we should include some extra info too
[12:35pm] smorgan: I'll follow up later
[12:35pm] mento: fyi, i'm going to have a little more time for camino for at least a few weeks
[12:35pm] mento: we'll chat later
[12:35pm] mento: lunchtime.
[12:35pm] ss: So, moving on...
[12:35pm] ss: 1.5.2 should happen in a couple/few weeks.
[12:36pm] ss: I believe the target date was the 16th, but I might have to check on that.
[12:36pm] ss: That is, if we want to release in sync with Gecko.
[12:36pm] ss: I'll let everyone know when it is and we can make a build or two.
[12:36pm] smorgan: so that's 1.8x2?
[12:36pm] ss: 1.8.1.8
[12:37pm] ss: ardissone|food: You want to talk about 1.5.1 and talkback?
[12:38pm] ardissone|food: sorry, phone from paris 
[12:38pm] ardissone|food: yeah, new topcrash this week
[12:39pm] ardissone|food: looks like site icon code 
[12:39pm] smorgan: ruh-roh
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[12:39pm] ardissone|food: 10.3.9 only afaict
[12:39pm] ardissone|food: i didn't file bug yet
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: all the ones look like http://talkback-public.mozilla.org/search/start.jsp?search=2&type=iid&id=36266174
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: 3am bug filing = no good
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: but i will later today
[12:41pm] smorgan: Bleh, that looks like a crash in image unarchiving
[12:41pm] ardissone|food:
[12:41pm] smorgan: Same place as the exception that we will be catching in 1.5.2
[12:41pm] ardissone|food: so 1.5.2 = better?
[12:42pm] smorgan: Not if it's a crash
[12:42pm] ardissone|food: ok 
[12:42pm] smorgan: An Apple crash log of this would help, since I could be mistaken about the underlying cause
[12:43pm] smorgan: e.g., maybe we are passing in bad params
[12:43pm] smorgan: But given that suddenly people on 10.4 were seeing exceptions here...
[12:43pm] smorgan: Well, maybe 10.3 as well; I don't remember
[12:44pm] ardissone|food: none of the 10.4 libSystemBs were this, so maybe crash 10.3, exception 10.4?
[12:44pm] ardissone|food: anyway, i'll get sam to see if we can find emails for these people
[12:45pm] ss: mmm
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: at some point we should probably troll the DesktopServicesPriv for emails, too, and get CmDiag reports
[12:45pm] smorgan: btw, speaking of "Camino stops working"... for anyone who didn't see it go by, we know another cause now
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: oh, right; sorry
[12:45pm] smorgan: Either the sketchy core plugin code or Flash has struck again
[12:46pm] smorgan: Not at all clear why people are suddenly seeing it more from my tests though
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: bug 397053
[12:46pm] smorgan: Although it's possible that the convergence of several new causes just made it appear it's happening more than it ever did
[12:47pm] smorgan: The gist of it is, if you like youtube, you'll probably need to quit periodically 
[12:48pm] ss: Yeah, and Adobe's looking at it too
[12:48pm] ardissone|food: get GOOG to use h236 and QT instead 
[12:48pm] ss: So hopefully they'll get something figured out or at least know if it's us or them
[12:48pm] ss: (us meaning Gecko)
[12:48pm] ardissone|food: yeah, michelle is good at working with us 
[12:49pm] ardissone|food: sam's made good progress on the website cleanup the past couple of weeks
[12:49pm] ardissone|food: lots of stuff there, but we're moving
[12:49pm] ardissone|food: peeja and jeff are both gone
[12:49pm] ss: Most if it requires designers
[12:50pm] ss: So if you know any with free time...
[12:50pm] ardissone|food: [11:04am] jeff: hey I am not going to be at the mtg today, I have a patch for bug 390909 coming this afternoon
[12:50pm] ardissone|food: [11:05am] thebot: jeff: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=390909 nor, --, ---, Jeff.Dlouhy@gmail.com, NEW, Tabsposé allows clicking in bookmark bar without reflecting action
[12:50pm] ss: Awesome
[12:51pm] ardissone|food: sam owes mento something
[12:51pm] ardissone|food: mayaTrunk needed the monitor plugged in, as mento expected
[12:51pm] ss: Scotch is what build guys normally like.
[12:51pm] ss:
[12:52pm] ss: Yeah
[12:52pm] ss: So maya's fine now
[12:52pm] peeja joined the chat room.
[12:52pm] peeja was promoted to operator by you.
[12:52pm] ardissone|food: do we have an update on binus?
[12:52pm] ss: Nope. I try it every day in hopes it'll come back.
[12:52pm] ss: I've cleared the pram and such.
[12:53pm] ss: Just doesn't want to boot. I'll keep trying.
[12:53pm] cl: "The definition of insanity is repeating the same task expecting a different outcome"
[12:53pm] ardissone|food: we need to get you 10.3 on a disk of some sort
[12:53pm] ss: I can manage that.
[12:53pm] ss: But I'm not sure it'll help.
[12:53pm] ss: I don't think the OS is messed up.
[12:53pm] ardissone|food: or, really, and OS, and see if does boot
[12:54pm] ss: I just think the machine is ready to go.
[12:54pm] ss: But we'll see
[12:54pm] ardissone|food:
[12:54pm] ss: I'll do more troubleshooting.
[12:54pm] ardissone|food:
[12:54pm] ardissone|food: peeja: are you here? if so, do you have anything to say about AS?
[12:54pm] peeja: i am, and...i don't
[12:54pm] peeja: sorry
[12:55pm] ardissone|food: students  
[12:55pm] ardissone|food: the only thing worse than students are people with real jobs and lives 
[12:56pm] ardissone|food: which is a great segue into bugs and queues
[12:56pm] ardissone|food: the important bug in the queue is smorgan's part-fix for trunk protocol suckage
[12:56pm] ardissone|food: mento: that's you
[12:56pm] ardissone|food: the sooner we can tell which bugs it doesn't fix, the better
[12:57pm] smorgan: I'll try to look at ftp crapping out very soon, as that bit me as well
[12:57pm] smorgan: It wouldn't surprise me if the lack of nsIHandlerService implementation that I discovered yesterday is screwing us in various ways
[12:58pm] ardissone|food: heh
[12:58pm] ardissone|food: smorgan: you also have kreeger's two "stop spamming" patches; wanna choose one? 
[12:58pm] smorgan: Yes, sorry
[12:59pm] ardissone|food: murph: how's the opensearch code?
[12:59pm] ardissone|food: (aside from the part drawing the pretty pictures)
[1:00pm] murph: ardissone|food: coming along pretty good, I have been working on drawing the chosen mockup...
[1:01pm] smorgan: glah, I have a really old review request too
[1:01pm] ardissone|food: we chose one?
[1:01pm] murph: the way it looks now I can do all drawing in code and just draw behind the actual Cocoa-supplied search button image
[1:01pm] ardissone|food: nice 
[1:01pm] murph: the parsing is complete as well; I just need to add some support to BWC to intermediate
[1:02pm] murph: as for which mockup, I was convinced by smorgan's comments, and am now leaning towards 18
[1:03pm] ardissone|food: 0h, i missed that comment
[1:04pm] ardissone|food: it's only orange when on a page offering an engine, right?
[1:05pm] murph: do you guys think we'll ever support another search plugin format in the future, because the path I'm on now is to generalize the main parsing procedure and allow specific implementations for each format
[1:06pm] murph: ardissone|food: yeah, only when it recognizes a plugin offered by the visible page
[1:06pm] smorgan: murph: how much extra work/complexity is that?
[1:07pm] smorgan: If not much, you may as well; if a bunch, probably better to wait until it comes up to refactor
[1:09pm] murph: well, it's not too much extra work at all; I only ask because I didn't want to go over-engineering this area without cause
[1:09pm] ardissone|food: i can't imagine opensearch being the end of the road 
[1:10pm] ardissone|food: ok, anyone have anything else?
[1:10pm] ardissone|food: we went long since we waited for professor pink
[1:12pm] ardissone|food: er, who's going to do the "can we get Sparkle in the tree" dance? (if i'm right in believing that's the next step for swupdate before implementing it)
[1:12pm] ss: Are we landing it fairly wholesale?
[1:12pm] ardissone|food: (and if i'm not right, what else is in the way)
[1:12pm] ardissone|food: mento wants src
[1:12pm] ss: I'd file a bug specifically for that and we can ask Gerv
[1:12pm] ss: But it should be fine
[1:12pm] ss: Yeah
[1:12pm] ardissone|food: so we do moz/camino/sparkle or whatever
[1:12pm] ss: I meant, unmodified
[1:13pm] ardissone|food: afaik, that's the plan
[1:13pm] ss: Then yeah, let's file a bug for it.
[1:13pm] ardissone|food: k
[1:14pm] ardissone|food: last call
[1:15pm] ardissone|food: everyone have a good week, and keep on plugging on those patches and reviews
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