Status Meetings:2007-10-17:Log

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[02:37am] You changed the topic to "http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2007-10-17:Agenda".
[11:49am] cl joined the chat room.
[11:52am] jeff joined the chat room.
[11:57am] cl was promoted to operator by you.
[11:57am] You are now known as ardissone|foraging.
[11:59am] murph joined the chat room.
[12:00pm] murph was promoted to operator by you.
[12:01pm] cl: waits
[12:01pm] jeff was promoted to operator by cl.
[12:02pm] peeja joined the chat room.
[12:02pm] pinkerton joined the chat room.
[12:03pm] pinkerton was promoted to operator by chanserv.
[12:03pm] smorgan joined the chat room.
[12:03pm] smorgan was promoted to operator by cl.
[12:03pm] pinkerton: moof
[12:03pm] peeja was promoted to operator by you.
[12:03pm] ardissone|foraging: moooof!
[12:03pm] kreeger joined the chat room.
[12:03pm] kreeger was promoted to operator by you.
[12:03pm] ardissone|foraging: are we expecting mento?
[12:04pm] cl: someone should make thebot say "moof" instead of "rheet" in #camino and #macdev
[12:04pm] pinkerton: heh
[12:04pm] ardissone|foraging: has moof set as his pm sound 
[12:05pm] cl: hey, send me that sound, if you don't mind 
[12:05pm] ardissone|foraging: moooof!
[12:06pm] ardissone|foraging: ok, let's start, and if mento comes, we can backfill him
[12:06pm] ardissone|foraging: everyone open  your camino to http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2007-10-17:Agenda
[12:07pm] You are now known as ardissone|food.
[12:07pm] peeja: is it too soon to put iphone development on the agenda? 
[12:07pm] ardissone|food: once again i think i'll start at 1.5 and swing back to 1.6
[12:07pm] ardissone|food: ?
[12:08pm] peeja: http://www.apple.com/hotnews/
[12:08pm] cl: haha
[12:08pm] cl: I think "Camino-for-iPhone" is something we can worry about once there is "Gecko-for-iPhone", since MobileSafari is, by most accounts, a fairly good browser.
[12:09pm] ardissone|food: heh, we need dougt to come in 
[12:09pm] ardissone|food: anyway
[12:09pm] ardissone|food: 1.5.x
[12:09pm] ardissone|food: Gecko 1.8.1.8 might be tomorrow, or might not
[12:09pm] ardissone|food: depends on if moco decides to fix any 10.5 bugs
[12:10pm] pinkerton: btw, i hate seeing ads when i use my phone
[12:10pm] pinkerton: it's like "what the fuck are these?!?!"
[12:10pm] pinkerton: oh right, ads!
[12:10pm] ardissone|food: hehe, yeah
[12:10pm] ardissone|food: does mobsfri not have the "apply CSS style sheet feature" ?
[12:11pm] ardissone|food: sam says they're meeting this morning to decide about 10.5
[12:11pm] pinkerton: but but, that's a requirement of the CSS spec!
[12:11pm] smorgan: pinkerton: you mean like allowing choice of multiple style sheets in the UI?
[12:11pm] pinkerton: that's what i meant
[12:12pm] ardissone|food: i mean the thing in safari's prefs
[12:12pm] pinkerton: oh
[12:12pm] pinkerton: shrugs
[12:12pm] ardissone|food: advanced:style sheet in big Safari
[12:12pm] smorgan: pinkerton: user style sheets != multiple alt styles on a page
[12:12pm] pinkerton: what are they meeting about 10.5?
[12:12pm] ardissone|food: to see if any suckage needs to be fixed on branch
[12:12pm] ardissone|food: http://wiki.mozilla.org/FF2:Leopard
[12:13pm] kreeger: the jacked up fonts in leopard ?
[12:13pm] kreeger: (with gecko views?)
[12:14pm] ardissone|food: kreeger: is it filed?
[12:14pm] kreeger: im not sure if it is an issue with the later seeds
[12:14pm] kreeger: i've only played around the WWDC one
[12:14pm] ardissone|food: right now we had a snafu with communicating with the ML team, so we have no ML build yet
[12:15pm] ardissone|food: we can maybe have one tonight, but it'll be missing half of the relnotes
[12:15pm] ardissone|food: otoh, if Gecko gets postponed, we can add Simp. Chinese
[12:16pm] ardissone|food: we'll talk with mento when he shows and after the Gecko decision
[12:16pm] ardissone|food: smorgan: i've got two more emails for the nsDocumentObserverList bug
[12:16pm] ardissone|food: do you want to try and recover their actual mac os x crash logs?
[12:16pm] ardissone|food: (assuming they even reply)
[12:17pm] smorgan: Sure?
[12:17pm] ardissone|food: their crashes are over a week old, so i'm doubtful they'll be the last camino crash, but maybe
[12:17pm] smorgan: I don't remember the stack offhand; trying to load talkback
[12:17pm] ardissone|food: heh
[12:18pm] ardissone|food: i.e., just running Camino Diagnostics might not give us what we want for the crash log
[12:18pm] smorgan: Oh, hm. Probably not
[12:18pm] smorgan: It's all Mozilla code
[12:19pm] ardissone|food: k, i'll just email them, and we can go from there
[12:20pm] ardissone|food: anyone have anything else about 1.5.x before we go on?
[12:21pm] peeja: (btw, we're working up the page?)
[12:21pm] ardissone|food: [12:07pm] ardissone|food: once again i think i'll start at 1.5 and swing back to 1.6
[12:21pm] ardissone|food:
[12:22pm] peeja: how did you know I would ask? 
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: forgives peeja for being in camino-on-iphone euphoria
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: so, wrt 1.6 stuff
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: we fixed one of the remaining tab scrolling P1 issues
[12:23pm] ardissone|food: (opt-click to scroll window-worth)
[12:24pm] ardissone|food: we've sort of been hemming and hawing over Tabsposé; it seems we're not moving towards taking it for 1.6, so can we make an official decision on that?
[12:24pm] jeff: I think it should be 2.0
[12:25pm] ardissone|food: (i'd much rather have jeff working on tab dragging, personally)
[12:26pm] jeff: I think tab dragging is something that logically comes before tabspose
[12:26pm] smorgan: sounds good to me
[12:26pm] pinkerton: yup agreed
[12:26pm] ardissone|food: ok 
[12:27pm] ardissone|food: pokes peeja about the AS dataloss bug
[12:27pm] jeff: I hope to get a WIP patch up for tab dragging soon
[12:27pm] peeja: yeah
[12:27pm] ardissone|food: yay!
[12:27pm] peeja: what timeframe are we talking about?
[12:27pm] ardissone|food: heh
[12:27pm] mento joined the chat room.
[12:27pm] mento was promoted to operator by chanserv.
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: mento: we did 1.5 discussion, now we're on 1.6
[12:28pm] mento: ok thanks
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: we should chat about 1.5.2 afterwards
[12:28pm] mento: sure
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: peeja: well, today is the "take 2" deadline for 1.6a1 bugs
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: i'm guessing we're not making it
[12:28pm] peeja: yeah...
[12:28pm] peeja: with midterms, I'm definitely not going to have time for bugs until the weekend
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: k
[12:29pm] peeja: the other AS bug should be trivial
[12:29pm] smorgan: The good news is that I finally stopped sucking and mostly finished sparkle
[12:29pm] ardissone|food: the bookmark eating is not a definiete a1 blocker, but it's "really want" and b1 blocker
[12:29pm] ardissone|food:
[12:29pm] peeja: ok
[12:29pm] ardissone|food: sam finally filed the bug for tree approval
[12:29pm] ardissone|food: no movement from gerv yet
[12:29pm] smorgan: At this point I just need to do the pref pane and wait for that bug to go through
[12:30pm] smorgan: We can make a decision about the pref here to speed the review process
[12:30pm] ardissone|food:
[12:30pm] ardissone|food: notes we've been good deciders so far today
[12:31pm] smorgan: My plan is to default to checking every day, rather than doing a startup based check, given that Camino is one of those apps that many people leave open for long stretches
[12:31pm] ardissone|food: mhm
[12:31pm] smorgan: So do we want a pref that is just On (check every day) or Off, or do we want a pref that's Check: Every Day, At Startup, Never
[12:31pm] mento: if it's been longer than a day since the last check, sparkle checks at or near startup, as i recall
[12:31pm] mento: on/off
[12:32pm] cl: yeah, I think on/off is fine
[12:32pm] peeja: i agree
[12:32pm] cl: there's a hidden pref you can set in a plist that controls the interval
[12:32pm] mento: anyone who really cares about it that strongly is an idiot and they can beat their plist anyway
[12:32pm] smorgan: So then the question is how to put that pref in the General pane
[12:32pm] cl: I might even suggest we default to once a week.
[12:32pm] smorgan: Having three options actually fits well, but two doesn't
[12:32pm] ardissone|food: (do we have a menu item for manual check?)
[12:32pm] smorgan: cl: No, because it's also the "Remind Me Later" interval
[12:32pm] smorgan: ardissone|food: yes, we will
[12:33pm] cl: smorgan: oh, right.
[12:33pm] cl: forgot about that
[12:33pm] mento: we'd want to set the interval based on how able we are to handle the download activity
[12:33pm] mento: but we will have no problems at all even if all of our users upgrade in the same hour, i suspect
[12:33pm] mento: so really it comes down to: how many users do we want to screw if we release a botched update?
[12:34pm] mento: if we do reasonable qa, it's not a big deal
[12:35pm] smorgan: Any suggestions on how to fit an on-off pref into our General prefs format of "Some label: |_| explanation"?
[12:35pm] smorgan: "Check for updates: |_| Automatically" seems a bit weird
[12:35pm] mento: Auto-update: [ ] Check for Camino updates periodically
[12:36pm] cl: i like mento's option, although I don't think smorgan's proposed text is all that weird either.
[12:36pm] smorgan: That's better. It doesn't fit the sentence format we use exactly, but close enough
[12:36pm] mento: yeah, i can't make it fit the sentence format without making one side sound weird
[12:37pm] mento: cl: i don't like "automatically" all by itself
[12:37pm] ardissone|food: I'm not fond of the hyphenation, but i've got nothing better
[12:37pm] smorgan: Okay, I'll go with that for now
[12:37pm] mento: ardissone|food: better than AutoUpdate, i'm sure we can come up with something better though
[12:37pm] ardissone|food:
[12:37pm] smorgan: Oh, one other snag is that unfortunately we can't just use our dmgs for the update delivery
[12:37pm] mento: f
[12:37pm] ardissone|food: ?
[12:37pm] smorgan: Thanks to everyone's favorite feature of our DMGs
[12:37pm] mento: because of the eula?
[12:37pm] smorgan: Yes
[12:37pm] mento: let's drop the eula
[12:38pm] ardissone|food: mofo won't like that
[12:38pm] pinkerton: ha
[12:38pm] smorgan: Alternately, I could minor-fork Sparkle
[12:38pm] mento: mofo can suck it
[12:38pm] pinkerton: lol
[12:38pm] smorgan: I could change our in-tree version to strip the dmg on download
[12:38pm] mento: smorgan: if we can get them to take that change upstream, ok
[12:39pm] smorgan: Or we could make specific updater dmgs, but that obviously kinda sucks
[12:39pm] mento: i don't like that option
[12:39pm] smorgan: mento: No idea how active/responsive they are
[12:39pm] smorgan: I'm certainly not a fan of the EULA, but I thought we had no choice there
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: it's for the MoFo trademark
[12:40pm] mento: smorgan: the flatten/unflatten won't work on non-hfsplus volumes
[12:40pm] smorgan: hrm
[12:40pm] peeja: (I have to go; I'll read the log)
[12:40pm] peeja left the chat room. (Quit: peeja)
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: peeja: 
[12:40pm] mento: if we run on non-hfsplus now, do we want to break autoupdate for non-hfsplus just to support the eula shit?
[12:41pm] mento: my opinion is that the trademark is sufficiently protected even if we don't flash shit in the user's face
[12:41pm] mento: (i'm cranky today.)
[12:41pm] ardissone|food: that your official legal opinion? 
[12:41pm] mento: yes
[12:41pm] mento: but i'm not representing the project
[12:41pm] mento:
[12:42pm] ardissone|food: barrister mento ;0
[12:42pm] smorgan: Well, I hate the EULA with a fiery passion, so if we can remove it then I fully support that.
[12:42pm] smorgan: If we can't, I'll look into how we can deal with the EULA
[12:42pm] mento: i don't really want to get into the eula argument's merits because we've done all this before, but if we have a good technical reason that it's fucking our shit, then i think removing it outweighs any argument for leaving it in
[12:42pm] smorgan: mento: We don't have to flatten-unflatten necessarily if we are willing to take a DMG conversion hit, btwc
[12:43pm] mento: plus, last time i checked, leopard brought back the ugly X on the eula screen
[12:43pm] smorgan: er, btw
[12:43pm] mento: smorgan: you mean hdiutil convert strips the resource?
[12:43pm] ardissone|food: (there's that bwc)
[12:43pm] smorgan: Seems to, yes
[12:43pm] mento: wow
[12:43pm] smorgan: I'd want to double-check; it surprised me as well
[12:43pm] smorgan: But I'm pretty sure that's what I did
[12:44pm] ardissone|food: (tell me what command to run and i'll check on 10.3 later, too)
[12:45pm] mento: i need to put some food in me.  i'll read the log later and address the various things left over for me when i return.
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: how will the install work? download and keep the dmg, download and install and keep the dmg, download and install and delete the dmg?  i've seen all 3 from apps i assume are sparkle (and random dl locations, too)
[12:45pm] mento: my update: no progress on breakpad for 1.6
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: weeps 
[12:45pm] mento: although i'm doing some more .ds_store reverse-engineering, with an eye on writing a tool to manage .ds_stores for us (and everyone else)
[12:45pm] cl: most of the apps I've seen download, install, and delete
[12:45pm] smorgan: ardissone|food: I haven't actually looked at that part of the code to see where it stashes stuff
[12:45pm] smorgan: I can find out though
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: k
[12:46pm] cl: which is how Apple's Software Update (mostly) works, at least as it appears to the end-user.
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: i had one app download the dmg to the desktop
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: and left it there
[12:46pm] cl: ew
[12:46pm] cl: what app?
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: i had one use my dl folder
[12:46pm] cl: makes a note not to use that app
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: can't recall now
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: hit a whole bunch of updates this weeked
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: or, rather, sauron did
[12:47pm] ardissone|food: anything else on swupdate?
[12:47pm] smorgan: I'll do prefs tonight
[12:48pm] smorgan: Once Sparkle can land, I'll post a patch
[12:48pm] ardissone|food:
[12:48pm] smorgan: Not much point while it require a project that refs my drive 
[12:48pm] cl: murph: have you had a chance to poke my bookmarks import yet in between OpenSearch stuff?
[12:48pm] smorgan: Actually, if we know where it's going, I can make a patch anyway
[12:48pm] smorgan: Do we know where we'd check it in?
[12:48pm] ardissone|food: i'd suggest mozilla/camino/sparkle, but that's mento's call
[12:49pm] smorgan: I'll go ahead and assume that, update my local stuff, and post a patch once prefs are done
[12:49pm] smorgan: So we can parallelize
[12:49pm] ardissone|food: unless gerv makes us land it in mozilla/other-licenses, which i hope isn't necessary
[12:50pm] smorgan: We need to add something to a license file or readme or something in the dmg, right?
[12:50pm] smorgan: I haven't gone back and looked at the terms again
[12:50pm] ardissone|food: istr that
[12:50pm] smorgan: I'll look at that tonight too
[12:50pm] ardissone|food: readme should be fine, i hope
[12:51pm] smorgan: Oh, and I tested the DSA signing, and that went fine
[12:51pm] ardissone|food:
[12:51pm] murph: cl: yea I did look through the code on bugzilla... I still need to examine it a little closer and compile/test it.  Sorry for the holdup  
[12:51pm] cl: murph: no worries, not really a big deal, I don't think
[12:51pm] cl: especially since we know a workaround for the bug.
[12:51pm] ardissone|food: no news from batwood?
[12:52pm] ardissone|food: since, you know, yesterday 
[12:52pm] jeff left the chat room. (Quit: jeff)
[12:52pm] ardissone|food: smorgan: can you try to schedule in poking him, since you were last point of contact?
[12:53pm] murph: also, smorgan: thanks for the search editor review; i'll respin that shortly!
[12:54pm] ardissone|food: if not, i'll add it to my queue, but I'm rather busy this week 
[12:54pm] smorgan: sure, I'll try to get ahold of him
[12:54pm] ardissone|food: murph: any more news on the search front beyond that?
[12:56pm] murph: hmm, OpenSearch is basically done except for a few minor tweaks, so I hope to have a patch for that before next week's meeting.
[12:56pm] ardissone|food:
[12:58pm] ardissone|food: anything else on 1.6?
[1:00pm] ardissone|food: ok, let me just harp on the r queue again 
[1:01pm] smorgan: The good news is that two of the old reviews are just parts of the search editor
[1:01pm] smorgan: So it's not so bad as all that
[1:01pm] ardissone|food: ah
[1:01pm] smorgan: nib and project, iirc
[1:02pm] ardissone|food: ok, anyone have anything else?
[1:04pm] ardissone|food: let's try again to have a1 complete next weds
[1:04pm] ardissone|food: have a good week everyone! :)
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