Status Meetings:2008-01-23:Log

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[02:27am] You were promoted to operator by chanserv.
[02:28am] You changed the topic to "http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2008-01-23:Agenda".
[11:30am] cl joined the chat room.
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[12:02pm] cl: ardissone|away: ?
[12:03pm] murph joined the chat room.
[12:03pm] You are now known as ardissone|foraging.
[12:03pm] cl was promoted to operator by you.
[12:03pm] murph was promoted to operator by you.
[12:03pm] smorgan was promoted to operator by you.
[12:03pm] jeff was promoted to operator by you.
[12:06pm] ardissone|foraging: we were waiting on web features to go on  a diet
[12:07pm] cl: ah
[12:07pm] cl: has it gone on enough of a diet yet? 
[12:07pm] ardissone|foraging: we'll see
[12:08pm] smorgan: It's slimmer than our 730 MB Camino binary 
[12:08pm] cl: god, Java makes our crash stacks look awful
[12:08pm] cl: just a giant mess
[12:08pm] ardissone|foraging: only our crash stacks? 
[12:08pm] cl: threads all over the place
[12:08pm] cl: well, yeah, good point
[12:09pm] ardissone|foraging: i assumed mento would be here, since he was already working on striptease
[12:09pm] ardissone|foraging: but maybe not, so let's start
[12:09pm] cl: i just pinged pink
[12:09pm] ardissone|foraging: everyone open http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2008-01-23:Agenda in your Camino 1.6b2 or newer
[12:10pm] ardissone|foraging: the big 1.6 news is of course we released b2 on Friday
[12:11pm] ardissone|foraging: to software update
[12:11pm] pinkerton joined the chat room.
[12:11pm] pinkerton was promoted to operator by chanserv.
[12:11pm] ardissone|foraging: and to everyone else yesterday
[12:11pm] cl: magic
[12:11pm] pinkerton: ah, no no
[12:11pm] pinkerton: no, "n"
[12:11pm] ardissone|foraging: so far only 7 crashes 
[12:12pm] ardissone|foraging: which is way better than b1 would have been 
[12:12pm] cl: haha
[12:12pm] ardissone|foraging: we need to continue to monitor channels and make sure we're getting adequate coverage
[12:12pm] pinkerton: i had a crash with b1 and so far none with b2
[12:13pm] pinkerton: and auto-update worked 
[12:13pm] ardissone|foraging:
[12:13pm] ardissone|foraging: for b3, we need to work on follow-up bugs from feature landings
[12:14pm] ardissone|foraging: and also on getting the last two big features in asap (tab dnd, breakpad)
[12:14pm] cl: Yeah, tab dragging is probably the single most requested feature still in feedback
[12:14pm] ardissone|foraging: and if you weren't following bug 413123
[12:15pm] cl: going by feedback, our browser would be just about perfect if we added tab dragging and a new icon 
[12:15pm] ardissone|foraging: we need to watch our nibs
[12:15pm] cl: smacks around the toolchain some more
[12:15pm] ardissone|foraging: ideally nib work is done in Xcode 2.4.1's IB on 10.4 
[12:16pm] ardissone|foraging: for nibs loaded at startup, absolutely
[12:16pm] ardissone|foraging: since 2.5's nibs will regress Ts 
[12:17pm] ardissone|foraging: on to the 1.6 roundup
[12:17pm] ardissone|foraging: peeja fixed one of the AS bugs this week and a patch for #2
[12:18pm] ardissone|foraging: which leaves just the bookmark-moving-destructo-bug left
[12:18pm] ardissone|foraging: swupdate: we're starting to find new bugs and mento and smorgan are working through them
[12:19pm] smorgan: It seems to be going pretty smoothly though
[12:19pm] pinkerton: can i ask a n00b swupdate q?
[12:19pm] ardissone|foraging: yes
[12:19pm] smorgan: RTFM!
[12:19pm] cl: there's a FM to R?
[12:19pm] pinkerton: have we made sure that we don't have any lurking DOS issues with spakle?
[12:19pm] pinkerton: er, sparkle
[12:20pm] cl: spankle?
[12:20pm] smorgan: pinkerton: we'll get a hit per day per user
[12:20pm] pinkerton: smorgan: could they ever all drift together so that all users hit at the same time?
[12:20pm] pinkerton: based on servers being down, etc?
[12:21pm] smorgan: In that people may launch their browser at the same time, yes
[12:21pm] smorgan: I'll check, but I don't believe there's any retry logic
[12:21pm] pinkerton: and it only checks at startup for now?
[12:21pm] smorgan: No
[12:21pm] smorgan: It checks every day
[12:22pm] smorgan: But startup if it's passed the check time
[12:22pm] smorgan: Because that's the first time it can see if more than the day has elapsed
[12:22pm] pinkerton: if it fails to check, does it reset the 24hr period to the time of first success?
[12:22pm] pinkerton: er, the check fails
[12:22pm] smorgan: That's what I need to check
[12:22pm] pinkerton: ok
[12:23pm] pinkerton: i'm worried about the server going down and everyone drifting to check at the same time because we reset based on when it comes back up
[12:24pm] pinkerton: we can move along, n00b hour is over.
[12:24pm] ardissone|foraging:
[12:24pm] ardissone|foraging: hands the floor to jeff 
[12:25pm] ardissone|foraging: jeff?
[12:25pm] jeff: um patch for tab DnD is up for review
[12:25pm] ardissone|foraging: this patch has everything fixed except dnd to overflow?
[12:26pm] jeff: yes
[12:26pm] ardissone|foraging: spectacular!
[12:26pm] jeff: and I am working on that follow up patch as well
[12:26pm] pinkerton: sweet
[12:26pm] jeff: and I quickly fooled with QuickLook in the DL mamager -> http://drop.jeffd.org/QuickLookDL.mov
[12:26pm] jeff: s/mamager/manager
[12:26pm] smorgan: what's the deal with the license on the animation code?
[12:27pm] pinkerton: rotfl that it uses safari
[12:27pm] cl left the chat room. (Ping timeout)
[12:27pm] pinkerton: makes sense, but still funny
[12:27pm] pinkerton: s/safari/webkit
[12:28pm] ardissone|foraging: it's growl, which is already in the tree for fx
[12:28pm] ardissone|foraging: we just need to get better headers, i think
[12:29pm] jeff: yea I did not know what we wanted to do for the headers, so I just left them for now
[12:29pm] ardissone|foraging: (and patch about:licesnse's growl section to show us using it)
[12:30pm] ardissone|foraging: for all practical purposes, we should be fine
[12:30pm] ardissone|foraging: landed batwood's multiple accounts last night, and this time it stuck (with bustage fix from mento)
[12:30pm] cl joined the chat room.
[12:30pm] ardissone|foraging: file bugs on stuff you notice
[12:31pm] ardissone|foraging: (check that it isn't already filed, of course  )
[12:31pm] ardissone|foraging: murph: you're up
[12:32pm] murph: right now I'm just trying to make the search fields look a bit more intelligent with autodiscovery...
[12:32pm] murph: bug 413191
[12:33pm] peeja joined the chat room.
[12:33pm] ardissone|foraging: follow-ups on feature landings = good 
[12:33pm] ardissone|foraging: applescript web feedhandlers is in the sr queue now
[12:33pm] murph: and I hope to fool around more with the browser window's tab loop shortly as well (I basically know what the issues are, how to work around the problems is what I'm still brainstorming)
[12:34pm] ardissone|foraging:
[12:34pm] ardissone|foraging: we'll do mento's exec stuff as a follow-up after the AS part lands
[12:35pm] ardissone|foraging: mento landed striptease last night
[12:35pm] ardissone|foraging: it did a fabulous job with the branch nightly
[12:35pm] cl: cries at the lack of re-op
[12:35pm] ardissone|foraging: not so hot with the trunk
[12:35pm] mento joined the chat room.
[12:35pm] mento was promoted to operator by chanserv.
[12:35pm] ardissone|foraging: speak of the devil 
[12:35pm] cl was promoted to operator by you.
[12:35pm] cl: yeah, I was trying to invite him, but apparently you have to have op to do that
[12:36pm] peeja was promoted to operator by cl.
[12:36pm] ardissone|foraging: mento: we were just talking about your striptease
[12:36pm] mento: take it off
[12:36pm] ardissone|foraging: how the branch loved it
[12:36pm] ardissone|foraging: the trunk, not so much
[12:36pm] smorgan: waits for the Camino version of bug 66984
[12:36pm] mento: the trunk is better now
[12:37pm] mento: http://stage.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/camino/nightly/2008-01-23-08-trunk/
[12:37pm] ardissone|foraging: you respun, nice 
[12:37pm] mento: i'm gonna dump the huge dmg from the ftp server
[12:37pm] mento: no need to keep it around
[12:37pm] ardissone|foraging:
[12:38pm] ampcoder left the chat room. (Ping timeout)
[12:38pm] ardissone|foraging: you want to push gcc4/10.3.9 for ppc?
[12:38pm] mento: i do
[12:39pm] ardissone|foraging: waits for pinkerton to weigh in
[12:40pm] ardissone|foraging: my only concern is bizarre lurking ppc/gcc4/10.3.9/branch bugs
[12:40pm] mento: eh.  shouldn't be many of those, it's not like it's a whole new compiler.
[12:40pm] pinkerton: i don't know what the implications would be
[12:40pm] ardissone|foraging: so we'd want to do it very soon
[12:41pm] mento: and it's not like it's the first time we'll be using the compiler with ppc.
[12:41pm] ardissone|foraging: but the first time for branch code
[12:41pm] mento: eh
[12:41pm] ardissone|foraging: i'm not saying i think we'll hit crap, just that's where i would be concerned
[12:42pm] smorgan: pinkerton: 10.3.9 becomes the min requirement is the only one we know of
[12:42pm] smorgan: But we get smaller code
[12:42pm] smorgan: And we know how you love that 
[12:42pm] pinkerton: heh
[12:43pm] pinkerton: oh, so we won't run at all before 10.3.9?
[12:43pm] pinkerton: will it launch?
[12:43pm] smorgan: I doubt it
[12:44pm] ardissone|foraging: and the LS warning won't display on 10.3
[12:44pm] ardissone|foraging: we can prevent it from launching, but not tell the users why
[12:44pm] smorgan: can never remember which OS versions that works with
[12:44pm] mento: 10.3 has a broken ls version thing
[12:44pm] mento: ls pays attention to it but doesn't show a dialog
[12:44pm] mento: i think that's how it goes
[12:44pm] ardissone|foraging: yes
[12:45pm] smorgan: So far, we only know of one user who will be affected by a 10.3.9 requirement...
[12:45pm] ardissone|foraging: haha
[12:46pm] smorgan: "You need to get a free, 2.5+ year old update to your OS to use a new version of Camino" seems pretty reasonable to me
[12:47pm] mento: who's running 10.3 < 10.3.9?
[12:47pm] smorgan: Someone who reported a bug and said they were using 10.3.7
[12:47pm] ardissone|foraging: some guy who filed a bug yesterday
[12:47pm] mento: weirdo.
[12:47pm] smorgan: Beyond better code, we also get fewer compiler surprises
[12:48pm] ardissone|foraging: less unexpected fun when taking a patch on the branch 
[12:48pm] pinkerton: how big is that update? i mean, knowing apple back in those days, it's probably 150mb
[12:48pm] smorgan: We've had some annoying issues landing patches on the branch and finding out that gcc3.3 hates us in new and exciting ways
[12:49pm] pinkerton: this won't impact 1.5.x releases either, will it?
[12:49pm] mento: hell no
[12:49pm] pinkerton: i think i'm ok with the new version saying 10.3.9 is a requirement, the problem is, we're' going to have a user support issue when it just fails to launch and we can't tell people why
[12:49pm] cl: back in those days? Have you seen the 10.5.1 update? That's at least 80 MB
[12:50pm] smorgan: pinkerton: saying it is going to be a user support issue presupposes that there are more than a handful of people in that situation
[12:50pm] ardissone|foraging: 10.3.9 combined update is 117 MB
[12:51pm] smorgan: That's like 4 kb per hour over the time it's been available
[12:51pm] pinkerton: smorgan: do we have any data on how our userbase is broken down? does ss get that data?
[12:51pm] smorgan: We never had a way of getting it before sparkle
[12:52pm] pinkerton: catch 22
[12:52pm] smorgan: We also have people who can't open the new dmgs because they are on 10.2
[12:52pm] smorgan: And IIRC we'll have the same with trunk and 10.3
[12:52pm] ardissone|foraging: yes
[12:52pm] smorgan: We've had maybe 2 or three people ever ask about it
[12:52pm] ardissone|foraging: (i didn't think we did anything to break 10.2 dmg-opening, though)
[12:53pm] pinkerton: is this something we can turn off easily?
[12:53pm] smorgan: gcc4?
[12:53pm] pinkerton: yeah
[12:53pm] smorgan: Under what circumstances would we turn it off?
[12:53pm] pinkerton: if we get a huge number of complaints
[12:53pm] smorgan: I don't accept that we should do that
[12:54pm] ardissone|foraging: it's silly not to be running 10.3.9 at this point
[12:54pm] smorgan: What would the complaint exactly be? "I demand that even though I don't take free OS upgrades, you must continue to support me in all future versions"?
[12:54pm] smorgan: I don't see that as a legitimate claim
[12:54pm] pinkerton: but we can't communicate that's the problem, so they're left thinking we just suck
[12:54pm] ampcoder joined the chat room.
[12:54pm] smorgan: Yes, we can
[12:55pm] smorgan: It's on the front page of caminobrowser.org
[12:55pm] smorgan: It will be in the release notes
[12:55pm] smorgan: It will be on versiontracker and macupdate
[12:55pm] pinkerton: ok
[12:55pm] smorgan: We are not going to be the first people shipping 10.3.9 as a min requirement, so it's not like they won't have encountered this before
[12:56pm] pinkerton: ok
[12:56pm] ardissone|foraging: and they'd just me mad a few months later when we ship 2.0/10.4min
[12:57pm] ardissone|foraging: ok
[12:57pm] ardissone|foraging: any breakpad or tinderbox updates?
[12:57pm] smorgan: I still suck, sorry 
[12:57pm] ardissone|foraging: really misses binus
[12:58pm] ardissone|foraging: everyone at least go read and ponder Bug 413501 - Provide a one-per-version startup warning about problem hacks
[12:58pm] ardissone|foraging: maybe even comment there
[12:59pm] ardissone|foraging: we'll get to it again next week if there's not a consensus in the bug
[12:59pm] ardissone|foraging: we had another stellar week of bug-fixing this week!
[1:00pm] ardissone|foraging: first prioritiy should be landing the last new features
[1:00pm] ardissone|foraging: then follow-up bugs on the features we've landed
[1:00pm] ardissone|foraging: then other stuff 
[1:01pm] ardissone|foraging: anyone else have anything?
[1:02pm] cl: just the Flashblock whitelist
[1:03pm] ardissone|foraging: as i said before, it was waiting on Web Features to go on a diet
[1:03pm] cl: right, so have we decided whether the recent work was enough of a diet? 
[1:03pm] cl: (regardless, I think we need to note that in the bug)
[1:04pm] ardissone|foraging: we'll need to see a mockup with the new button
[1:04pm] ardissone|foraging: anything else?
[1:04pm] cl: also, there's a comment in there "let's get the patch in, then worry about the UI"
[1:04pm] cl: and the patch never got sr? either.
[1:04pm] cl: so we should at least do that 
[1:05pm] ardissone|foraging: no, let's make sure the UI the patch needs will work
[1:06pm] smorgan: Someone will need to remake the patch as well; it's not going to apply
[1:06pm] cl: k, that's all I've got.
[1:07pm] ardissone|foraging: anyone else?
[1:07pm] jeff left the chat room. (Quit: jeff)
[1:07pm] cl left the chat room. (Quit: gotta go)
[1:09pm] ardissone|foraging: ok, everyone have a good week
[1:09pm] pinkerton: l8r
[1:09pm] pinkerton left the chat room.
[1:09pm] smorgan left the chat room.
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