Status Meetings:2007-01-17:Log
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[12:00pm] froodian: i thought pink was going to be here [12:01pm] cl: he's coming [12:02pm] pinkerton joined the chat room. [12:02pm] pinkerton was promoted to operator by chanserv. [12:02pm] pinkerton: moof [12:02pm] pinkerton: sorry [12:02pm] pinkerton: i only have to 9:30 [12:02pm] mento joined the chat room. [12:02pm] mento was promoted to operator by chanserv. [12:02pm] cl: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2007-01-17:Agenda [12:03pm] cl was promoted to operator by froodian. [12:03pm] murph was promoted to operator by froodian. [12:04pm] cl: OK, let's get started. [12:04pm] cl: Apparently I'm running things this week. [12:05pm] cl: And I hadn't looked at the agenda until 30 seconds ago when I posted that link, so... [12:05pm] pinkerton: good times! [12:05pm] cl: everyone pull that up [12:05pm] cl: 1.1 is coming along [12:06pm] cl: either we're really good at killing crashers or a2 isn't getting enough testing. [12:06pm] cl: we're not sure which [12:06pm] cl: do we have any numbers on a2 downloads, ss? [12:06pm] cl: (or anyone else?) [12:07pm] pinkerton: i need to update to it [12:07pm] cl: haha [12:07pm] pinkerton: oh, btw, people at google say a2 is really good [12:07pm] cl: excellent [12:07pm] cl: b1 will be even gooder [12:08pm] cl: i guess it goes without saying that a2 is, in theory, our last release before b1. [12:08pm] cl: and b1 is string-freeze time [12:08pm] cl: mento: is early Feb a realistic date for b1? [12:09pm] mento: as far as spinning it, sure [12:09pm] cl: OK, good. [12:09pm] cl: I think we can have all the code where we need it to be. [12:09pm] mento: but does that leave enough time for development above a2? [12:09pm] pinkerton: i think our b1 list is short, we need to just get this out the door [12:09pm] cl: Yeah, it is fairly short. [12:10pm] mento: no problems on my end, then. [12:10pm] froodian: speaking of which, we should get to the decisions that need to be made [12:10pm] froodian: while pink's here [12:10pm] cl: which brings me to specific bugs, unless anyone has anything to say about other general stuff [12:10pm] cl: first: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=362655 [12:10pm] cl: Make "Keyboard Shortcuts" menu item pointing to online documentation [12:11pm] thebot joined the chat room. [12:11pm] pinkerton: on the security stuff, we asked for ss and stuart to be given security bug access [12:11pm] froodian: [12:11pm] pinkerton: we'll keep folks posted on how that goes [12:11pm] cl: k [12:11pm] cl: thx [12:11pm] cl: Do we want to bother with a keyboard shortcuts menu item? [12:11pm] cl: I personally think it's a good idea. [12:12pm] cl: But I know menu bloat is something we've been concerned with in th epast [12:12pm] froodian: I do too. The question is whether adding a menu item is bloat. Personally, we got rid of one, so I think adding one is fair [12:12pm] froodian: wash out [12:12pm] pinkerton: heh [12:12pm] pinkerton: i'm ok i guess [12:12pm] cl: froodian: make it so. [12:13pm] froodian: an enthusiastic approval if i ever heard one [12:13pm] cl: haha [12:13pm] cl: pinkerton|emo [12:13pm] cl: bug 343299 [12:13pm] murph: i'm cool with the keys menu item. I'm amazed how many people don't use the focus shortcuts for the url/search fields. [12:13pm] thebot: cl: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=343299 nor, P3, Camino1.1, camino@seanmurph.com, ASSI, Spell-check context menu missing Ignore and Learn Spelling entries [12:14pm] cl: That's gonna be complicated. [12:14pm] murph: pink, I've been meaning to ask you about mozOSXSpell. That's fundamentally the engine underneath the mozilla API's we're using for spell checking, correct? [12:14pm] cl: yeah, you guys discuss this, since i have no idea what's going on [12:14pm] cl: ping me when we're ready to move to the next bug [12:14pm] pinkerton: mozosxspell is a replacement for the myspell stuff using the cocoa libs [12:14pm] pinkerton: NSSPellCheck, etc [12:15pm] pinkerton: just reimplements the same api with the osx stuff instead of shipping a library [12:15pm] pinkerton: er, shipping a dictionary [12:15pm] murph: ok, so what ends up happening when a word is learned? [12:15pm] pinkerton: right now, probably nothing [12:15pm] murph: because NSSpellChecker doesn't provide a public API for doing that [12:15pm] murph: i see.. [12:16pm] pinkerton: we might be able to use a 'learned word' dict on the side like the myspell stuff [12:16pm] pinkerton: and then we'd have to look in both on every word [12:16pm] froodian: but we'd want learned words to persist across other apps [12:16pm] froodian: wouldn't we? [12:17pm] pinkerton: i guess that's the only difference between learn and ignore ,right? [12:17pm] murph: I was testing the learning behavior, and they do persist even after quitting Camino, so they must be filed in some dict [12:17pm] pinkerton: learn ignores in other apps [12:17pm] pinkerton: ok, maybe we are doing that then [12:17pm] murph: ignoring does not persist between editing sessions, but learning does (right now) [12:17pm] pinkerton: oh [12:17pm] pinkerton: so the only problem we have is that "learn" doesn't learn for other applications? [12:17pm] murph: the main learning trouble is that it's not propagated to other apps. [12:18pm] murph: yeah [12:18pm] froodian: learn doesn't learn for us either [12:18pm] pinkerton: murph just said it did [12:18pm] froodian: i mean, it's never presented in the spelling options [12:18pm] murph: hmm, I thought it did [12:18pm] pinkerton: oh right [12:18pm] froodian: if it really learned it, it could be a correct spelling if you spelled something similar to it [12:19pm] murph: ohh, right, I overlooked that part of it [12:19pm] pinkerton: so i guess we need to work that into the suggestions as well [12:19pm] pinkerton: if we can get "learn" to learn and suggest for just camino, i'm ok with that for 1.1 [12:19pm] pinkerton: since FF can't do other apps either [12:19pm] pinkerton: and we can work on it for the future [12:19pm] cl: sounds good to me [12:20pm] pinkerton: if we can't get learn, we can fall back to only having ignore, which is annoying, but not the end of the world at all [12:20pm] cl: i was just about to ask that [12:20pm] cl: move on to next bug? [12:20pm] pinkerton: it's still hugely better than not having spellcheck, so we shouldn't hold the world for it [12:20pm] murph: yeah, I agree. [12:20pm] pinkerton: ok [12:20pm] pinkerton: next? [12:20pm] cl: bug 361463 [12:20pm] thebot: cl: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361463 nor, --, Camino1.1, stuart.morgan@alumni.case.edu, NEW, Address security concerns with keychain password auto-fill in forms [12:21pm] pinkerton: i got 10mins [12:21pm] pinkerton: stuart and i talked a little about this yesterday, but i don't remember what we were talking about [12:21pm] ardissone|away: there's no smorgan to desc this [12:21pm] You are now known as ardissone|food. [12:21pm] pinkerton: and he's not here now [12:22pm] cl: well, that pretty much covers all the important stuff [12:22pm] froodian: well, those are all the 1.1 bugs (yay, we got through before 12:30) [12:22pm] pinkerton: heh [12:23pm] cl: pinkerton: if you get some time, I'd like for you to at least think about bug 350733 and give a yes/no/maybe-in-certain-circumstances [12:23pm] thebot: cl: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350733 enh, --, ---, nobody@mozilla.org, UNCO, Make cmd/shift modifiers work on items in the back/forward button menus [12:23pm] cl: doesn't have to be today, just sometime [12:23pm] cl: because I get all twitchy when there are UNCOs in my queries [12:23pm] pinkerton: heh [12:23pm] cl: especially if they're older than a month [12:24pm] ardissone|food: that's a compelling reason to fix a bug [12:24pm] cl: it's a compelling reason to make some sort of decision [12:24pm] pinkerton: i guess it can't really hurt to do it from a user perspective, just makes that code more confusing [12:24pm] pinkerton: more features to screw up and regress [12:24pm] cl: well, it screws with UI standards, too [12:24pm] pinkerton: hrm, i guess it does [12:24pm] cl: since you can't hold down the Command key and click, or the button will move [12:25pm] cl: and by introducing this inconsistency, there's potential for introducing user confusion [12:25pm] pinkerton: my gut is to say no, let's keep it simple [12:25pm] cl: mento: i think you're the point man on bug 337261 [12:25pm] thebot: cl: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=337261 nor, --, Camino2.0, mark@moxienet.com, NEW, Review dom_storage build changes on the Camino/1.8 branch [12:25pm] mento: oh, ok [12:26pm] mento: thanks for the ping, i'll take a look. [12:26pm] cl: bug 361157 needs some thought on the part of somebody [12:26pm] froodian: the more i think about it, the more i think it'd be weird [12:26pm] thebot: cl: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361157 nor, --, ---, stuart.morgan@alumni.case.edu, ASSI, Opening files should open them in a new window [12:26pm] froodian: though i filed it [12:26pm] cl: dunno who [12:26pm] froodian: (it = the cmd-click bug) [12:26pm] pinkerton: ok, i gotta jet if nobody needs me [12:27pm] cl: thanks [12:27pm] froodian: later pinkerton [12:27pm] pinkerton: sorry i've been so MIA lately, keep up the good work, people do like a2 a lot! [12:27pm] pinkerton: l8r [12:27pm] pinkerton left the chat room. [12:27pm] murph: have a good one pink. [12:27pm] cl: anyone have anything else to discuss? [12:27pm] murph: not really, but, FWIW, I think I can get behavior in pretty soon to switch spell checking languages. [12:27pm] cl: excellent [12:28pm] ardissone|food: mento: pawn vanished again on Sunday [12:28pm] froodian: kicks pawn, just for fun [12:28pm] mento: box is not up [12:28pm] ardissone|food: lovely [12:29pm] ardissone|food: #flog [12:29pm] mento: pings #build [12:30pm] ardissone|food: so, everyone saw the notes about b1 in the agenda? [12:31pm] ardissone|food: it's string/nib freeze for l10n, so if anyone has bugs that might change those [12:31pm] ardissone|food: and aren't b1+ or b1?, please b1? them [12:31pm] murph: ok. [12:31pm] cl: ardissone|food: you, me, froodian, and ss should go through the target-1.1 list and make sure everything is kosher re: b1 [12:31pm] ardissone|food: i hope we have them all [12:32pm] ardissone|food: also [12:32pm] ardissone|food: no new features post-b1 [12:32pm] ardissone|food: we have enough bugs/holes in features we added this cycle that we won't fix them all already [12:32pm] ardissone|food: and [12:33pm] cl: heh [12:33pm] ardissone|food: be very stingy about giving bugs a 1.1 target from now on [12:33pm] ardissone|food: we re-triaged earlier in the week and kicked 20 bugs [12:34pm] ardissone|food: but we're still 35 bugs from done (5 are website) [12:34pm] cl: 34 [12:34pm] ardissone|food: unless it's critical or a new regression, don't 1.1 it [12:34pm] smorgan joined the chat room. [12:35pm] smorgan was promoted to operator by you. [12:35pm] froodian: I've got to head. See you later everybody [12:35pm] murph: later froodian [12:35pm] ardissone|food: later froodian [12:36pm] ardissone|food: smorgan: can you describe the password stuff you and pink were talking about, so we can be clued in? [12:36pm] smorgan: The which now? [12:37pm] smorgan: Sorry I was late, something came up this morning [12:37pm] cl: bug 361463 [12:37pm] thebot: cl: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361463 nor, --, Camino1.1, stuart.morgan@alumni.case.edu, NEW, Address security concerns with keychain password auto-fill in forms [12:37pm] ardissone|food: pink couldn't remember what you two discussed [12:38pm] smorgan: So the UE hit of not prompting is pretty obvious; you have to remember your login info [12:38pm] froodian left the chat room. (Ping timeout) [12:38pm] smorgan: (or get it directly from keychain, but my guess is most users don't know how to do that) [12:38pm] ardissone|food: "not prompting"? [12:39pm] smorgan: If the action on a form is different [12:39pm] ardissone|food: oh, ok [12:39pm] smorgan: So the case there is that www.foo.com changes to do logins through login.foo.com, so now my password doesn't fill [12:40pm] smorgan: If we do prompt, I think yes has to be sticky, but not no [12:40pm] smorgan: Reasoning: [12:40pm] smorgan: Yes, because there's no reason not to. If it's a dangerous form, they are already hosed, and if not it's what they would want [12:41pm] smorgan: No not sticky for two reasons [12:41pm] smorgan: 1) no is the default, and you don't want the default reaction to be desctructive [12:42pm] smorgan: 2) if you don't know if it's a real login form, you need to be able to say no with the confidence that you can reload and press yes if it turns out to be one [12:42pm] smorgan: So the issue is this: [12:42pm] ardissone|food: by sticky, you mean change the keychain entry as well? [12:42pm] smorgan: Right, meaning they aren't prompted again [12:43pm] smorgan: So the issue is, what if, for whatever reason, there is a login.foo.com form on www.foo.com that you do want to fill, but a www.foo.com login form that you don't [12:43pm] smorgan: Every time you go to a page with the latter, it will ask you if you want to fill it [12:44pm] ardissone|food: how common is that? [12:44pm] smorgan: That's the question [12:44pm] ardissone|food: that almost sounds like bug .... [12:44pm] smorgan: A bug where? [12:44pm] ardissone|food: bug 178607 [12:44pm] thebot: ardissone|food: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178607 nor, --, Camino1.2, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Keychain cannot save multiple passwords for the same host, different urls [12:44pm] ardissone|food: oh, no, not quite [12:45pm] smorgan: No [12:45pm] ardissone|food: i mean, the different urls could have different form targets [12:45pm] ardissone|food: since they're "different forms" [12:45pm] smorgan: There could be a "never" option, but then we need UI for controlling that, which would get really ugly (and users wouldn't understand it) [12:47pm] smorgan: My feeling is that we should try the prompt and see what happens, unless a bettter idea surfaces [12:47pm] ardissone|food: yeah [12:47pm] smorgan: But it makes me nervous [12:50pm] ardissone|food: (you can never have two different forms on the same host both get filled, or will we store two entries?) [12:52pm] smorgan: I guess that's a question too [12:52pm] ardissone|food: there's a half-sketchy option 3 [12:53pm] smorgan: I was thinking of just adding another action host to the keychain entry [12:53pm] ardissone|food: tell them they don't match [12:53pm] smorgan: We could store a different account per action host [12:53pm] ardissone|food: ah [12:53pm] smorgan: But that makes doing the right thing on a site re-org harder [12:54pm] ardissone|food: wishes this was just written out as a website bug..... [12:55pm] smorgan: Yeah, I mostly feel that way too [12:56pm] smorgan: But then the JS stuff is sketchy too [12:56pm] smorgan: I'm really starting to think that the description of Opera's (? I think?) method is actually the right approach [12:57pm] ardissone|food: what's that? [12:58pm] smorgan: I guess there's some sort of magic-wand toolbar button that lights up when you are on a page with stored login info, and you press it to log in. [12:58pm] ardissone|food: hmm [12:58pm] ardissone|food: unless sfri and fx both switched to doing that, we'd get killed [12:59pm] smorgan: Maybe, maybe not [12:59pm] smorgan: It's the same amount of work for the user [12:59pm] smorgan: And it closes the "unclosable" auto-JS-stealing holes too [12:59pm] ardissone|food: right now it's no work for the user; we just fill [1:00pm] smorgan: They have to press the login button [1:00pm] smorgan: My understanding of the wand is that it does that too [1:00pm] ardissone|food: oh [1:01pm] smorgan: It would make the multi-account UI much easier to implement too [1:01pm] ardissone|food: menu-button? [1:02pm] smorgan: That was my thought [1:02pm] smorgan: (not sure if they do it) [1:04pm] smorgan: It may well have problems I haven't thought of, but it does close a lot of security holes by requiring initial user action [1:05pm] ardissone|food: ok, so homework for everyone is to check out Opera (we think) and for smorgan to talk to pink more [1:05pm] smorgan: Oh, this probably isn't 1.1 material [1:06pm] cl: so is there a viable solution for 1.0.4? [1:06pm] ardissone|food: really? [1:06pm] smorgan: We'd need more time to consider/test a big UI change like that I think [1:06pm] cl: because that's the other thing that's being held up. [1:07pm] smorgan: I think for 1.0.4 and 1.1 we pick an option like prompting on different forms or silently not filling [1:07pm] ardissone|food: oh, the opera thing, not "fixing this bug somehow" [1:07pm] smorgan: Right [1:07pm] ardissone|food: ok [1:07pm] ardissone|food: whew [1:08pm] ardissone|food: or we could not fill and tell them why [1:08pm] ardissone|food: instead of being silent [1:08pm] smorgan: How is that better than prompting and having a fill button? [1:09pm] ardissone|food: but i still think i prefer the prompt [1:09pm] ardissone|food: heh, i need caffiene [1:10pm] ardissone|food: one other question for you before we leave [1:10pm] ardissone|food: did Eiichi's log mean anything? [1:10pm] ardissone|food: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=337750#c54 [1:10pm] thebot: ardissone|food: Bug 337750 cri, P2, Camino1.1, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, bookmarks-corrupted-n.plist often written as empty file [1:10pm] ardissone|food: he's on 10.3.9 [1:11pm] ardissone|food: or was, last i knew [1:11pm] smorgan: He couldn't have been [1:12pm] smorgan: And that error makes no sense at all to me. "I couldn't write a file because it doesn't exist" [1:12pm] smorgan: I have no idea what that means actually happened [1:13pm] smorgan: I'm hoping someone else will get something else that makes sense [1:13pm] ardissone|food: [1:13pm] smorgan: But I have no real hope for that bug making sense anytime soon [1:14pm] smorgan: I think your backup idea is the only reason we'll be able to ship 1.1 [1:14pm] ardissone|food: heh [1:14pm] ardissone|food: now if i could only come up with an idea like that for the "page loads but doesn't render" bug [1:16pm] ardissone|food: anyway, it's a quarter after 1 here, so unless anyone has anything else... [1:16pm] smorgan: If I could repro it on demand I could see if it's perhaps another case like the scrollbar... [1:17pm] froodian joined the chat room. [1:17pm] froodian was promoted to operator by chanserv. [1:18pm] ardissone|food: most common is a full-page image that's scaled [1:18pm] ardissone|food: and then random pages thereafter [1:18pm] ardissone|food: 0r facebook [1:18pm] smorgan: That one wasn't fixed already? [1:19pm] smorgan: I thought the more reproducible version had been fixed somehow [1:19pm] ardissone|food: the image-dragging from desktop, no [1:19pm] ardissone|food: that's why the bug is assigned to mento, though [1:19pm] ardissone|food: we need to split that bug [1:29pm] You are now known as ardissone|away.