Status Meetings:2006-09-27:Log

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12:05 <@ss> Welcome everyone to another Camino meeting
12:05 <@kreeger>  small meeting today
12:05 <@kreeger> - pink - mento
12:05 <@ss> Glad to see some of you made it for our first Wednesday version
12:05 <@delliott> +smorgan :)
12:05 <@ss> Note that we did this version for pink, but he's out of town.
12:05 <@ss> :)
12:05 <@ss> First up is 1.1a1
12:06 <@ss> Overally we're looking good.
12:06 <@ss> Overall even
12:06 <@ss> The focus before a1 needs to be on the pop-up blocker bugs and the regressions 
            we've seen from autocomplete and RSS.
12:06 <@ss> Most of those regressions are now minor
12:06 <@ss> But they should still get looked at and fixed.
12:07 <@ss> Tenatively, we'd like to release on Oct 5 or 6 (PDT)
12:07 <@kreeger> we have a patch up on the pref loading issue
12:07 <@ss> Be sure to target that... :)
12:07 <@ss> But yeah, we're looking good, as I said. Most things have gotten fixed.
12:07 <@ss> The main issue now is the new pop-up blocker design.
12:07 <@ss> I believe that's for you kreeger 
12:08 <@kreeger> oh ok
12:08 <@kreeger> what is the decision
12:08 <@ss> You had an r-
12:08 <@ss> No?
12:08 <@kreeger> yeah
12:08 <@kreeger> but we haven't decided on the design
12:08 <@ss> So... just fix that up.
12:08 <@ss> Don't worry about that part
12:08 <@kreeger> or what it should look like
12:08 <@ss> The graphics can be changed later.
12:09 <@ss> Focus on getting your patch ready
12:09 <@ss> We can swap graphics whenever.
12:09 <@ss> We just need to get our current design out and our new(er) design in.
12:10 <@kreeger> ok 
12:10 <@ss> As far as 1.1final is concerned, there are only a couple major things left.
12:10 <@kreeger> i was under the impression that we haven't made a decision on what to do there
12:10 <@ss> kreeger: We have a decision to use a background image
12:10 <@ss> And new (x) icons
12:10 <@ss> That's what needs the coding.
12:10 <@kreeger> ok
12:10 <@ss> Beyond that, it can be changed later.
12:11 <@ss> The big 1.1 feature that's left is software update
12:11 <@ss> I'm hoping that will make beta so it can get some testing.
12:11 <@ss> But it's definitely not going to make a1, and that's fine. :)
12:11 <@ss> froodian is also working on the menu cleanup
12:11 <@ss> And is blocked by me. :)
12:11 <@ss> I'll need to remedy that today.
12:12 <@ss> There's 119 bugs targeted for 1.1
12:12 <@delliott> kreeger: Are you taking SUpdate?
12:12 <@ss> Which is down a bit, but not very many...
12:12 <@ss> That said, we've been pushing through a lot of bugs.
12:12 <@kreeger> delliott: yes
12:12 <@delliott> kreeger: Ok.
12:12 <@ss> And smfr has been doing good with the review queue.
12:13 <@ss> We haven't seen any major issues with 1.0.3 yet.
12:13 <@ss> Although, we don't have talkback reporting.
12:13 <@smorgan> Has anyone given anyone any data from the various bookmark logging additions?
12:13 <@ss> Smokey has been emailing Jay and he's promised to look at it today, before he goes 
            on his honeymoon. :)
12:13 <@ss> I haven't heard of anything yet...
12:14 <@froodian> smorgan: wevah had it happen with "regular logging"  but it didn't say much.  
                  just that by the time it tries to read it, it's already reading in a 0 byte 
12:15 <@ss> Oh! Forgot to mention.
12:15 <@ss> For 1.1a1, we're going to make a "" website
12:15 <@ss> We're going to put a notice on it asking people not to submit it to any update sites
12:15 <@ss> Hopefully, they'll listen.
12:16 <@delliott> Hoepfully :)
12:16 <@ss> But the notice will be big
12:16 <@ss> And bad ass
12:16 <@ss> ;)
12:16 <@ss> Does anyone have anything else before we get into specific bugs?
12:17 <@ss> Going once?
12:17 <@ss> Going twice?
12:17 ! ss invited thebot into the channel.
12:17 -!- thebot has joined #camino-mtg
12:17 <@ss> bug 181806
12:17 < thebot> ss: Bug enh, P5, Camino2.0, 
      , NEW, Add "Go" button to toolbar
12:17 <@ss> Jon was looking at that
12:17 <@ss> And getting ready to create a graphic for it
12:17 <@ss> But we need to first decide if we want it at all.
12:17 <@delliott> Will it displace anything?
12:18 <@ss> ?
12:18 <@delliott> From the current standard Toolbar setup.
12:18 <@ss> It could.
12:18 <@froodian> it wouldn't be standard
12:18 <@froodian> the potential problem is that it should be attached to the location bar
12:18 <@ss> It depends on how it's done.
12:18 <@ss> Right
12:18 <@ss> That's how Fx2 did it.
12:18 <@ss> They attached it to the location bar
12:18 -!- kreeger2 has joined #camino-mtg
12:18 <@froodian> but invisible for people who don't want it
12:18 <@ss> So _everyone_ got it.
12:19 <@froodian> i really think that if it's at all possible, then we should do it
12:19 <@froodian> but i don't know how
12:19 <@froodian> it's important for novice or young users imo
12:19 <@ss> Fx1.5 allowed the go button to be anywhere (fyi)
12:19 <@froodian> (ie, my little brother bugs me about it whenever i visit home)
12:19 <@ss> Ah...
12:19 <@ss> smorgan: Is that possible?
12:20 <@smorgan> I'd like to veto paste&go, in case anyone is considering that
12:20 <@ss> Requiring the go button be connected to the location bar when visible.
12:20 <@smorgan> Is what possible?
12:20 <@ss> But allowing it to not be visible
12:20 <@smorgan> Well, there's the route
12:20  * ss knows not of this route
12:20 <@smorgan> As ghetto as I find that option
12:20 <@smorgan> You have two
12:20  * ss doesn't use
12:20 < kreeger2> heh
12:20 <@ss> Oh
12:20 <@smorgan> location bar with go
12:20 <@smorgan> location bar without go
12:20 <@ss> Hm
12:21 <@delliott> That is ghetto.
12:21 <@ss> So there's no way to have a "go" button sitting in the customize sheet and, when 
            dragging it onto the toolbar, require it connect to the location bar?
12:21 < kreeger2> not that i know of
12:21 <@murph> as for the user's choice to whether it's visible: would it be shown/hidden from 
               the customize toolbar sheet, or a preference?
12:21 <@froodian> customize toolbar
12:21 < kreeger2> iis the stuck together toolbar item a 10.4 only thing?
12:21 <@froodian> says i
12:21 <@ss> Yeah, customize toolbar.
12:22 <@ss> We could make it a really light grey.... 
12:22 <@ss> ...
12:22 <@delliott> Since we are moving to 10.3.9 (evenually), we want to make it compatible.
12:22 <@ss> Or not available.
12:22 <@ss> We're already requiring 10.3 for 1.1
12:23 <@froodian> well,'s way is kinda ghetto
12:23 <@froodian> but there is precedent
12:23 <@froodian> i'd support that
12:23 <@ss> I don't think I would...
12:24 <@froodian> i mean, another thing would be to add another split to the split view
12:24 <@froodian> but that's even nastier
12:24 <@ss> That's much nastier.
12:24 -!- kreeger2 is now known as kreeger2-afk
12:24 <@delliott> If it has to go in, shouldn't it have to be to the immediate right of the url 
12:24 <@ss> That's what we're saying.
12:24 <@froodian> delliott: right.  that's the whole problem
12:25 <@delliott> Do you think people will complain loudly if they cannot remove it?
12:25 <@froodian> yes
12:25 <@ss> Oh yeah.
12:25 <@delliott> Which side of the 80/20 split are those people?
12:25 <@froodian> 95
12:25 <@smorgan> kreeger: there's no such thing as a stuck together toolbar item; there's just 
                 toolbar items that happen to contain three different behaviors.  That's why I 
                 find Mail's toolbar so ghetto.
12:25 <@ss> Really?
12:26 < kreeger2-afk> oh
12:26 < kreeger2-afk> i see
12:26 -!- kreeger2-afk is now known as kreeger2
12:26 < kreeger2> i haven't ever looked into any of those
12:26 <@smorgan> If they had made toolbar items that could glue and unglue themselves, that 
                 would have been pretty cool, but they didn't
12:27 <@delliott> I cannot see regular users being vocal about a Go button at inside right of 
                  the url bar.
12:27 <@delliott> Nobody whines about the inside-left on the Google search bar.
12:27 <@ss> delliott: I can.
12:27 <@froodian> well, lots and lots of people would be pissed if it were there all the time
12:27 <@froodian> least of all, us
12:27 <@ss> I don't see it being 95%, but I don't think this is an 80/20 bug
12:28 <@ss> I think it'd be closer to 60/40
12:28 <@ss> Or even 50/50
12:28 <@ss> One of those crazy rare ones...
12:28 <@delliott> It feels like most people wouldn't notice.
12:28 <@ss> It wouldn't be inside the location bar.
12:28 <@delliott> We would because damn, we code it everyday.
12:28 <@smorgan> delliott: They would.  Trust me.
12:28 <@ss> It *couldn't* be inside the location bar.
12:29 <@ss> That wouldn't work right given we have two potential icons there.
12:29 <@ss> It'd probably be to the right of it.
12:30 <@ss> Anyway, I'm all for wontfixing this bug. I can see the value, but I don't think we 
            have a solution.
12:30 <@froodian> i just think it's important to have a mouse-only way to load webpages
12:30 <@smorgan> That's not what wontfix means
12:30 <@delliott> This should be a 'draft some screenshots' solution.
12:31 <@smorgan> wontfix means we have no desire to fix it
12:31 <@ss> If Apple were to add "sticky" toolbar items (for lack of a better word), we could 
            do it.
12:31 <@froodian> delliott: it's not design, it's ui
12:31 <@froodian> that's the problem
12:31 <@ss> smorgan: Alright then... future. :)
12:31 <@smorgan> Yes
12:31 <@froodian> fffffffffffff
12:31 <@ss> I'll do the honors.
12:31 <@ss> bug 175336
12:31 < thebot> ss: Bug enh, --, Camino1.2, 
      , NEW, Camino - Different finger icon for links that have a 
12:31 <@ss> Specifically:
12:31 <@ss> Jon gave a few new ideas for cursors there.
12:32 <@delliott> 
12:32 <@delliott> Arse
12:32 <@ss> We should discuss them and give feedback.
12:32 <@smorgan> I don't really like any of them
12:32 <@delliott>   
12:32 <@ss> Typically, with Jon, it's good if only one of us gives feedback.
12:32 <@delliott> ARSE
12:32 <@delliott> I suck at IRC
12:32 <@ss> So we don't bombard him.
12:32 <@ss> smorgan: I don't think any of them convey it, personally
12:32 <@smorgan> 3 is closest in my opinion, but they look like Windows windows (or terminal, 
                 on the right)
12:33 <@froodian> i think it's important for it to be a mickey mouse hand
12:33 <@ss> iCab uses a "stack", iirc
12:33 <@froodian> mac users know that that == link
12:33 <@ss> I agree.
12:33 <@ss> It needs to be a mickey mouse hand.
12:33 <@smorgan> 1 is out, 2 is only useful if you know HTML, and I don't get 4 at all
12:34 <@ss> I kind of do.
12:34 <@froodian> what is 4 for?
12:34 -!- kreeger2 has quit 
12:34 <@ss> "target 'up'"
12:34 <@froodian> opt-click?
12:34 <@ss> Or something along those lines.
12:34 <@delliott> This seems unnecessarily complex.
12:34 -!- kreeger is now known as kreeger-away
12:34 <@kreeger-away> have to run foro a bit
12:34 <@ss> So we can ask him for more
12:35 <@ss> But we should express what we want.
12:35 <@froodian> i said this last night, but i think downloads should be a down arrow
12:35 <@ss> That's totally another bug. :)
12:35 <@ss> But it would rule it out for this bug
12:35 <@froodian> is it?  i don't understand waht these are for
12:35 <@smorgan> This is for new windows
12:35 <@froodian> all 16?
12:35 <@smorgan> Yes
12:35 <@delliott> How does this add value to Camino?
12:35 <@ss> Yes.
12:36 <@froodian> oh
12:36 <@delliott> I am totally confused.
12:36 <@froodian> i thought they were supposed to mean different things
12:36 <@froodian> sorry
12:36 <@smorgan> delliott: The same way the "Opens foo in new window" in Safari's status bar 
12:36 <@ss> (Which I believe we have a bug for, btw)
12:36 <@smorgan> Which is another option; do that and forget about the cursor
12:36 <@delliott> I'm all for the Status Bar notification.
12:36 <@ss> I think we have a bug for both.
12:37 <@smorgan> Yeah
12:37 <@delliott> Changes to the Hand are confusing.
12:37 <@froodian> people request it a lot
12:37 <@froodian> on feedback
12:37 <@smorgan> I wonder if a hand with the alias-arrow overlay would work
12:37 <@froodian> where lot = sometimes
12:37 <@smorgan> It overloads meaning, but...
12:37 <@delliott> froodian: If you have people wanting it, then fair enough :)
12:37 <@ss> Unfortunately, when we (optionally) kill the status bar, it'd be nice to have it on 
            the cursor as well.
12:38 <@smorgan> It does imply something in a new place
12:38 <@ss> It's also more work to look down at that status bar than at the cursor.
12:38 <@ss> smorgan: I can see that working, but I still think a different kind of cursor would 
            be nice.
12:38 <@ss> ala 3 but with improvements to convey it better.
12:38 <@froodian> well, i'd like to see a document icon version
12:38 <@froodian> just to see
12:39 <@froodian> is it taboo to put colors in pointers?
12:39 <@ss> No...
12:39 <@ss> Copy anyone?
12:39 <@froodian> i'd like to see 3 with traffic lights
12:39 <@ss> The green thing.
12:39 <@froodian> yeah
12:40 <@smorgan> If he's doing another round of mockups, I'd like to see one with the alias 
12:40 <@smorgan> At least then we'll know if it sucks ;)
12:40 <@ss> Alright. We have:
12:40 <@delliott> ;)
12:40 <@ss> 1) alias arrow
12:40 <@ss> 2) document version
12:40 <@ss> 3) #3 with traffic lights (define that better for me?)
12:40 <@ss> All of them using the hand.
12:41 <@froodian> the close/minimize/zoom widgets
12:41 <@ss> Right, but all of them at once?
12:41 <@ss> Oh!
12:41 <@ss> I you mean in the corner
12:41 <@froodian> yeah
12:41 <@froodian> so that it reads more as a window
12:41 <@ss> Wow, that'll be tough to convey.
12:41 <@ss> :)
12:41 <@froodian> very
12:41 <@ss> I have full confidence in Jon.
12:41 <@smorgan> Window could be tab, remember
12:41 <@ss> That's true...
12:42 <@delliott> Happy days to the person who has to code up figuring out where the link goes! 
12:42 <@smorgan> That may not be terribly important for an icon though
12:42 <@ss> Alright, let's go with this and see what he comes up with.
12:42 <@ss> bug 303193
12:42 < thebot> ss: Bug enh, --, Camino1.1, 
      , NEW, Make error pages look less like Windows and more like 
12:42 <@ss> One of the issues Smokey conveyed was about the new "arrow" icons
12:43 <@ss> And how they mean other things throughout the OS X UI
12:43 <@ss> Specifically, they usually "go" places
12:43 <@ss> (Oh and this link: )
12:43 <@smorgan> I didn't like those
12:43 <@ss> Besides those, I think this design is better.
12:43 <@ss> Just have one big chunk of text?
12:43 <@ss> Or you mean kill the description?
12:44 <@smorgan> No, do what's there without bullet symbols
12:44 <@smorgan> The spacing already conveys logical groupings
12:44 <@ss> I think there'd need to be more spacing.
12:44  * ss pulls out Fx and DOMi
12:44 <@delliott> 1/2/3 ?
12:44 <@smorgan> Or just plain bullets; whatever
12:45  * delliott leaves
12:45 -!- delliott has left #camino-mtg
12:45 <@ss> Hm
12:46 <@ss> It doesn't look too bad that way
12:46 <@ss> I still think there'd need to be more spacing.
12:46 <@froodian> other than that, i think it's very nice
12:46 <@ss> But yeah, other than that it's great.
12:46 <@ss> Let's have him make that change and give us the CSS.
12:46 <@ss> We'll get feedback and, if desired, add bullets back later.
12:47 <@froodian> make it so
12:47 <@ss> That's really it for today
12:47 <@ss> A lot shorter meeting than last week... :)
12:47 <@ss> Next week Mike will be back
12:47 <@ss> And I'm sure we'll have lots to talk about pre-a1
12:47 <@ss> See everyone back here next week. :)