Status Meetings:2006-10-04:Log
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12:04 <@froodian> alright, let's start 12:05 <@froodian> 1.1a1 12:05 <@ardissone> it needs way more testing that we can get at this point if we want 1.1 before 2007 12:05 <@froodian> we were planning on releasing this week 12:05 <@froodian> but a lot of the pieces aren't quite together 12:05 <@froodian> there's been some progress 12:05 <@froodian> but not enough imo 12:05 <@ardissone> i think we need to be out before Fx2 or after Fx2 has died down 12:06 < kreeger2> sorry i have been busy 12:06 <@froodian> when's Fx2? 12:06 <@ardissone> dunno for sure 12:06 <@ardissone> it's not on the ics anymore 12:06 < kreeger2> my guess is mid-october 12:06 <@ardissone> it's very close 12:06 < kreeger2> granted the security scare might push it back 12:07 <@froodian> i'd like to release before Fx2 12:07 <@froodian> personally 12:07 <@cl> that'd be nice, but is it realistic? 12:07 < kreeger2> are we just awaiting the kqueue patch and some popup UI things? 12:07 <@ardissone> planet says 24 Oct 12:08 <@ardissone> kreeger: more or less, yes 12:08 <@froodian> yeah 12:08 <@ardissone> any of the other "landing followup" bugs are also game 12:08 <@froodian> there's other stuff, but it matters less 12:08 <@ardissone> but popup UI is in the worst shape 12:08 -!- peepo has joined #camino-mtg 12:09 <@ardissone> kreeger: you hope to have kqueue ready fro review this weekend, right? 12:09 < kreeger2> yeah 12:09 <@froodian> if Fx2 is 24 Oct, I think we should definitely be before that 12:09 -!- kreeger is now known as _kreeger 12:09 <@ardissone> let's shoot for next week and re-evaluate if needed 12:10 <@froodian> sounds good to me 12:10 <@ardissone> pinkerton: ^^^ 12:10 <@cl> when we say "release" are we talking about a1, or the final 1.1? 12:10 <@ardissone> a1 12:10 <@froodian> a1 12:10 <@pinkerton> that's fine 12:10 <@cl> because there's no way in hell we're getting a full version out before Fx2, is there? 12:10 <@froodian> jesus no 12:10 <@cl> ok, just making sre. 12:10 <@cl> *sure 12:10 <@froodian> ok, next 12:10 <@ardissone> no, not with our 3 month break after 1.0 ;) 12:10 <@froodian> Core bugs 12:11 <@froodian> take a very long time to get reviewed 12:11 <@froodian> is there anything we can do to get more loving in that area? 12:11 <@cl> 4 days? those examples don't look *that* bad to me? 12:11 <@ardissone> specificially hwaara was concerned that Camino fixes for major Core-caused breakages take too long 12:11 <@cl> we've waited longer than that for review on Camino patches (albeit not lately) 12:12 <@ardissone> it also takes us too long to get patches ready for review in those cases :/ 12:12 <@cl> mhm 12:12 <@froodian> yeah, i think the problem is specifically when it's major breakage problems 12:12 <@froodian> anyway, i don't think there are any "answers", it's just something we should be aware of 12:12 <@ardissone> right, with xpfe going away, for instance 12:12 <@ardissone> but other major trunk changes 12:13 <@cl> right. 12:13 <@froodian> next? 12:13 <@cl> i'm all for updating the roadmap :-p 12:13 <@froodian> http://www.caminobrowser.org/development/roadmap/ is a big fat liar ;) 12:13 <@froodian> let's do it 12:13 <@cl> make it so. 12:13 <@froodian> somebody file a bug 12:14 <@froodian> queues are doing pretty well 12:14 <@ardissone> "Camino 1.1 is planned for 4th quarter 2006" :P 12:14 <@cl> well, that's still realistic. mostly. 12:14 <@cl> if we get a1 out next week. 12:14 <@cl> we could conceivably ship by the end of the year :-p 12:14 < kreeger2> ardissone: when is xpfe going away 12:15 <@ardissone> kreeger2: slow death 12:15 <@ardissone> but faster once SeaMokeuy 1.5 ships 12:15 < kreeger2> ok good 12:15 <@ardissone> which will be soon0ish 12:15 <@froodian> anybody have anything else before we move on to specific bugs? 12:16 <@ardissone> we need to focus on fixing 1.1 (and a1) bugs 12:16 <@froodian> yeah. a1 specifically until it comes out 12:16 <@ardissone> (unless it's mjr breakage, of course) 12:16 <@ardissone> we fixed 8 bug last week, but only 3 were a1 12:17 !sand.mozilla.org froodian invited thebot into the channel. 12:17 -!- thebot has joined #camino-mtg 12:17 <@froodian> bug 303193 12:17 < thebot> froodian: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=303193 enh, --, Camino1.1, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Make error pages look less like Windows and more like Camino/Aqua 12:17 <@froodian> we should make a decision about bullets and land it 12:17 <@ardissone> smfr and philippe didn't like the loss of bullets 12:17 <@ardissone> i tend to agree 12:18 <@froodian> personally, i think philippe's bullets look nice 12:18 <@ardissone> url? 12:18 <@froodian> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=240707&action=view 12:19 <@cl> i prefer that one as well 12:19 <@ardissone> that still has the too-big spacing, right? 12:19 <@froodian> uh, yeah 12:19 <@cl> yeah 12:20 <@froodian> just between the bottom of the list and the button 12:20 <@ardissone> pinkerton: is that attachment ok, once we fix the spacing between sections? 12:20 <@froodian> i think 12:20 <@froodian> i think the spacing section would be like that, no? 12:20 <@cl> and i prefer the bullets to the boxes 12:20 <@ardissone> hicks made the section spacing really large when he killed the bullets 12:20 <@froodian> ok 12:20 <@ardissone> let me look at his css 12:21 <@ardissone> yeah 1.5em vs 0.5 em in stock and 0.7em in hicks's last one with bullets 12:21 * pinkerton shrugs, looks fine to me 12:21 -!- peepo has quit [Quit: later] 12:22 <@froodian> ok. let's land it with reduced margins and spacing then? 12:22 <@ardissone> yeah 12:22 <@ardissone> and philippe's bullets 12:22 <@froodian> yes 12:22 <@cl> agreed 12:22 <@froodian> ok. bug 315340. too bad that neither of the people who commented in the bug are here 12:22 < thebot> froodian: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=315340 nor, --, ---, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, show inline tooltip for fields that don't fit instead of dropped location as tooltip 12:23 <@cl> I like the idea of that one better than the "always show a tooltip" idea. 12:23 <@froodian> the only worry i have is that we'll need double the tracking rects 12:23 <@froodian> right? 12:23 <@froodian> so that we can have a url tooltip and a title tooltip 12:23 <@cl> probably, but is that really as big a deal as smfr seems to think? 12:23 <@froodian> dunno 12:24 <@ardissone> do we have 2 right now, or only one for the entire row? 12:24 <@froodian> one for the entire row 12:24 <@ardissone> i tend to think that we want the inline version 12:25 <@froodian> well, i'm not married to my patch, so i'd be ok w/ that 12:25 <@froodian> though it seems to have caught on on the forae 12:25 <@cl> also, I think we should *not* have tooltips (we currently do) for columns where you can see the entire thing 12:25 <@cl> they're useless and they get in the way. 12:25 <@ardissone> that's what this proposes, no? 12:25 <@cl> yeah. 12:25 <@cl> which is the other reason i'm heavily in favour of it 12:26 <@froodian> i'm not sure it does 12:26 <@cl> because it would allow us to get rid of the tooltips that hide stuff. 12:26 <@froodian> it seems weird to have tooltips or not have tooltips based on column width and title length 12:26 <@cl> for instance, a tooltip on the Location field for a bookmark folder is, well, silly. 12:26 <@cl> at least, our current one is. 12:26 <@cl> it's just the title of the folder. well, duh, i can see that! 12:27 <@ardissone> that's the way finder list views work,tho 12:27 <@ardissone> only tooltips when truncated 12:27 <@froodian> so it does 12:27 <@froodian> i guess i'm ok w/ it then 12:28 <@froodian> alright, so inline tooltips for titles and urls, and only when the title/url has been truncated? 12:28 <@cl> right. 12:28 <@cl> how about for location/description? 12:28 <@ardissone> pinkerton: ^^^ 12:28 <@cl> s/location/keyword 12:28 <@froodian> pinkerton: this is in the bm manager 12:28 < kreeger2> lunch 12:29 -!- kreeger2 has quit 12:29 <@pinkerton> what? 12:29 <@_kreeger> nick kreeger-lunch 12:29 -!- _kreeger is now known as kreeger-lunch 12:29 <@ardissone> tooltips in the bookmarks manager 12:29 <@ardissone> right now they're useless ;) 12:30 <@ardissone> the proposal is inline tooltips for titles and urls, but only when the title/url has been truncated 12:30 <@froodian> pinkerton: when in the bookmarks manager, when you mouseover an item, we want to have inline tooltips (instead of drop tooltips) for the title and url, and only when the title/url has been truncated (by column width) 12:30 <@pinkerton> sounds fine to me, is that possible to implement in a cocoa tree? 12:30 * froodian has no idea 12:30 -!- Pinolo has quit [Ping timeout] 12:30 <@froodian> the downside of this decision is that since we made it, the bug is no longer fixed ;) 12:30 <@froodian> (or on its way to being fixed) 12:31 <@ardissone> well,???some enterprising soul can fix it at some point ;) 12:31 * cl wonders where the random Arabic letters come from in Smokey's IRC text every so often 12:31 <@ardissone> cmd-space :P 12:32 <@cl> heh 12:32 <@ardissone> next bug then? 12:32 <@froodian> ok, next 12:32 <@froodian> i was going to ask about Bug 290212, but I don't think enough people who could shed brilliance on the subject are here 12:32 <@ardissone> bug 290212 12:32 < thebot> ardissone: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290212 enh, --, Camino1.1, stridey@gmail.com, NEW, Implement bookmark folders' "Open in Tabs"/"Open in New Tabs" with alternate menu items 12:32 <@cl> pinkerton, mento, smfr probably need to fight that out :-p 12:32 <@froodian> maybe. maybe it just needs something really clever. 12:32 <@ardissone> sooon, please ;) 12:32 <@cl> although...have we seen any big perf hits since the alternates for the bookmark menu landed? 12:32 <@froodian> not that anybody has mentioned 12:33 <@ardissone> no one's really complained 12:33 <@cl> because that seems potentially a lot worse than what this bug is asking for 12:33 <@ardissone> but i think our testing is too light 12:33 <@ardissone> right now 12:33 <@cl> and if that hasn't caused problems, i think we're probably OK with this one. 12:33 <@ardissone> which is another reason for a1 12:33 <@froodian> well, the problem isn't the alternates 12:33 <@froodian> it's getting the text in them to update 12:33 <@cl> what's the problem, then? 12:33 <@cl> ah 12:33 <@froodian> based on the tabs/windows pref 12:34 <@froodian> personally, i see that as a very minor issue 12:34 <@froodian> compared to the current one 12:34 <@cl> have you tried Wevah's suggestion? 12:34 <@ardissone> yeah 12:34 <@froodian> yes 12:34 <@froodian> it's no good 12:34 <@cl> and it didn't work? shoot. 12:34 <@froodian> fuck, that's who i didn't invite 12:34 <@cl> yeah, but he's not there 12:34 <@ardissone> I think i'd be ok with landing the fix and fixing the text later 12:34 <@froodian> i'd be very ok with that 12:34 <@froodian> i dunno about smorgan though 12:35 <@ardissone> yeah.... 12:35 -!- peeja has left #camino-mtg [] 12:35 <@cl> i don't have any brilliant ideas there either. 12:36 <@ardissone> pinkerton: in Bug 290212, there's a regression where you have to hold down cmd before opening the menu to make it "open in NEW tabs" 12:36 <@ardissone> can we go ahead and land the part of the fix that does that right now, and come back to fixing things so the text updates based on all our tab/window prefs? 12:36 <@pinkerton> sure 12:36 <@ardissone> ok, why am i seeing that now :/ 12:36 <@ardissone> k 12:37 <@ardissone> do we want to plug murph's bug for eyeballs, too? 12:37 <@froodian> we should 12:37 <@froodian> bug 341967 12:37 <@ardissone> (we should also revisit the color bug for pink's benefit) 12:37 <@murph> yeah, I have a few points I'd like to ask for opinions on.. 12:37 < thebot> froodian: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341967 nor, --, Camino1.1, camino@seanmurph.com, ASSI, Popup blocker notification text doesn't wrap properly 12:38 <@murph> I've been having a hell of a time with this one, but I should have a (non-hackish) solution pretty soon.. 12:38 <@murph> but 12:38 <@froodian> specifically bug 341967 comment 10 12:40 <@froodian> i think the best chance for that bug is to flag the patch you have (or the next iteration) to r?smorgan 12:40 <@murph> when the window size gets to be a certain [very small] width, I think the text needs to stop wrapping (just like the Fx behavior) 12:40 <@froodian> because he probably has solutions 12:40 <@cl> don't we already have a minimum size for the window anyway? 12:40 <@cl> hrm, guess not. 12:40 <@murph> yeah, but it's a real small value 12:41 <@froodian> i have a wild idea. let's get rid of the text entirely, and just use an icon. that way, it won't have to wrap. Plus, we could put it somewhere where it didn't get in peoples' ways, like... um... i dunno... 12:41 <@froodian> sorry, not helpful 12:41 <@froodian> ;) 12:41 <@cl> lol 12:42 <@cl> i second that idea. 12:42 * pinkerton glares 12:42 <@froodian> sorry 12:42 * froodian hides 12:42 -!- cl is now known as userbase 12:42 * userbase glares back 12:42 -!- userbase is now known as cl 12:42 <@froodian> at this point, i'm just doing it to be snarky 12:42 <@froodian> i apologize. back to topic 12:42 <@froodian> murph: i think that's totally reasonable 12:42 <@pinkerton> i need food brb 12:43 <@murph> ok..bc otherwise we'd end up wrapping into about 50 lines with one char each 12:43 <@froodian> yeah, you have to draw the line somewhere 12:43 <@cl> can someone take a screenshot of the wrapping behaviour with a window resized as small as it'll go? 12:43 <@ardissone> what's reasonable? the width of the prefs window? 12:43 <@cl> cause i'm curious to know just how bad it looks. 12:43 <@murph> cl: yeah..i'll upload one now 12:44 <@froodian> we must have at least a couple 800x600 users, right? 12:44 <@ardissone> yeah 12:44 <@froodian> prefs window is 595 12:44 <@ardissone> prefs are 595 12:44 <@froodian> that seems reasonable 12:44 <@froodian> if you're browsing at that resolution, you'll be using as much of the screen as possible 12:44 <@ardissone> we should also fix min-width on the browser window, too 12:44 <@cl> hey, here's an idea... 12:45 -!- delliott has joined #camino-mtg 12:45 <@cl> instead of stopping the wrap at some magic number of pixels of width 12:45 <@cl> can we continue to wrap, but insert a linebreak so the button(s) and text are on separate lines? 12:45 <@ardissone> ew 12:45 <@froodian> well, at a certain point you have more popup blocker than content pane 12:45 <@murph> cl: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=241186 12:46 <@cl> yeah, see, that *does* look awful. 12:46 <@cl> but what if you stuck the buttons either above or below that message? 12:46 <@ardissone> basically, we need to account for l10n and reasonably-small widths 12:46 <@murph> ignore the button's being off-centered in that, btw :( 12:46 <@cl> (probably below) 12:47 <@ardissone> 278 is really too small 12:47 <@murph> the funny part about fixing this bug is that popuptest.com probably never had so many hits in one week before I started working on this :D 12:47 <@cl> also, it occurs to me now (i probably should have said something before) that the "Tube" icon and the close widget seem to be two different visual representations of the same sort of idea, which makes me wonder if users are going to try to click the "Tube" icon and get some unexpectedly wrong behaviour (or nothing at all) 12:47 <@ardissone> if there are popups throwing popups, that's just evil 12:48 <@cl> ardissone: you've never browsed much pr0n with IE, have you? :-p 12:48 <@ardissone> heh, no on both accounts 12:49 <@ardissone> we could use the standard warning icon if that starts to be a problem, i guess 12:49 <@cl> i think that might be better than introducing a new icon for an old concept. 12:49 <@froodian> ok. so, let's limit the wrapping width. murph can figure out the details of exactly where the line is, but 595 sounds reasonable to me 12:50 <@froodian> well, remember that we want to use this icon in the status bar 12:50 <@ardissone> and then fix browserwindow to match 12:50 <@ardissone> right 12:50 <@froodian> if there's just a "warning" icon in the status bar, it doesn't mean anything 12:50 <@froodian> i like the tube icon 12:50 <@cl> i like it too, i just don't know that it's appropriate for this. 12:51 <@murph> alright, 595 should work out fine..I will try to have this one fixed asap then 12:51 <@froodian> i think having the close button be more visible will help 12:51 <@froodian> which will prolly happen as part of the existing followups 12:52 <@ardissone> bug 355323 12:52 < thebot> ardissone: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=355323 nor, --, Camino1.1, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Fix followup issues with changing the color of the pop-up blocker bar 12:52 <@froodian> (since the hover and mousdown state need to be more visible, and you can only get so much blacker, so the "standard" state will need to be lighter) 12:52 -!- kreeger-lunch is now known as kreeger 12:52 <@ardissone> i think we need to switch to a gradient 12:52 <@ardissone> for the bgcolor 12:53 <@murph> yeah, the pattern image assumes a fixed height at the moment 12:54 <@cl> mhm 12:54 <@ardissone> this one (i think) http://adggda.com/~ss/camino/mockups/popupblocker2-toned_down_blue.jpg 12:54 <@ardissone> can be done as a gradient perhaps 12:54 <@murph> and then we have the whole resolution independent migration, and using bitmapped images aren't always future-proof in this regard 12:54 <@ardissone> yeah (although we're screwed already there) 12:54 <@cl> can't we generate that gradient programmatically? 12:55 <@ardissone> the one in that screenshot, or the current glassy one? 12:55 <@cl> in the screenshot 12:55 <@murph> cl: sure, with CoreGraphics or CoreImage (CI is 10.4+ only tho) 12:55 <@ardissone> i think we should be able to generate toned_down_blue in code 12:56 <@ardissone> i think that instead of trying to match the close icon's color, it should stay grey 12:56 <@ardissone> which will help with people finding ti 12:56 <@froodian> i agree 12:56 <@froodian> especially if we're going with the blue 12:56 <@murph> yeah, maybe make it's color more in-line with the aqua widgets accompanying it 12:57 <@murph> since they are the three objects that can be clicked 12:57 <@froodian> well, let's just keep it the way it is in the tabs 12:57 <@froodian> since we already have a graphic that means "close this" to people 12:57 <@murph> true.. 12:57 <@cl> mhm 12:57 <@froodian> ok. i have to go make a presentation in class 12:57 * froodian hands ardissone the torch 12:57 <@ardissone> now the question is, has pinkerton seen any of this or is he still at lunch? 12:58 -!- froodian is now known as froodian|class 12:58 <@ardissone> thanks froodian 12:59 <@ardissone> pinkerton: did you catch any of this discussion on the problems with the glassy black popup blocker bg? 13:00 <@cl> fwiw, i think glassy black looks horribly out of place with the rest of the UI 13:00 <@pinkerton> nope 13:00 <@ardissone> bug 355323 gives a good summary 13:01 * pinkerton waits for thebot 13:01 <@ardissone> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=355323 13:01 <@pinkerton> heh 13:01 -!- ardissone is now known as ardissone|thebot 13:01 -!- ardissone|thebot is now known as ardissone 13:01 < thebot> ardissone: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=355323 nor, --, Camino1.1, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Fix followup issues with changing the color of the pop-up blocker bar 13:01 <@pinkerton> js 13:01 <@pinkerton> ha 13:02 <@pinkerton> i don't recall the buttons looking out of place in the mockups 13:02 <@ardissone> hwaara and smorgan both complained about that 13:03 <@pinkerton> i c 13:03 <@ardissone> they look "too suspened-in-air" or something; not sure how to describe 13:04 <@ardissone> but the bigger problem really is with wrapping the text to accomodate l10n and smaller windows 13:04 <@ardissone> we need something we can do in code rather than as an image 13:05 <@ardissone> e.g., http://adggda.com/~ss/camino/mockups/popupblocker2-toned_down_blue.jpg 13:05 <@cl> so what's the end result of the wrapping going to be if the window *is* resized below the 595-pixel threshold? 13:05 <@cl> murph: can you post a screenshot of that once you have a working patch? 13:05 <@cl> because if it's more of the current behaviour, that sucks ass. 13:05 <@murph> cl: sure thing.. 13:06 <@murph> cl: if the window gets too small, and we back out of wrapping, the widgets would (right now) be clipped off-screen (which is what Fx2 does) 13:06 <@ardissone> pinkerton: our consensus from this meeting discussion is go with a blue like that mockup that can be done in code and go back to the standard close button so it doesn't disappear 13:07 <@pinkerton> ok 13:07 <@cl> murph: that's better than what we're currently doing, i suppose. 13:07 <@ardissone> ok 13:07 <@cl> i still don't see why we can't wrap the two buttons onto a separate line 13:07 <@murph> yeah, i don't really like having the close button clipped off-screen though 13:07 <@cl> which seems like it would solve all the problems and avoid the issue of a magic-number threshold 13:07 <@ardissone> anyone have anything else? 13:07 <@cl> yeah, one quick thing 13:08 <@cl> bug 337958 13:08 < thebot> cl: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=337958 nor, --, Camino1.1, bugzilla@chrislawson.net, ASSI, Dragging folder/tab group from Bookmark Bar to tab strip should respect shift toggle 13:08 <@cl> there is no comment 17 :-p 13:08 <@cl> i assume you meant comment 12. 13:08 <@ardissone> smorgan's last comment 13:08 <@ardissone> i was tired and my head hurt last night 13:08 <@cl> heh 13:09 <@cl> pinkerton, this is where you come in. 13:09 <@cl> how is a class method different from what i've done already? :-p 13:12 <@ardissone> not to cut off the answer, but anything else, or can we go and let cl wait alone? ;) 13:13 <@ardissone> ok then...let's go out and fix a1 nominees and things for the popup blocker, and we'll try again to ship 1.1a1 next week 13:13 <@ardissone> thanks everyone! 13:14 <@cl> pinkerton: you can answer over in #camino 13:14 <@cl> since i'm leaving this channel. 13:14 -!- cl has left #camino-mtg [] 13:14 <@murph> sounds good. see everyone later.. (and sorry my bug is taking a while)