Status Meetings:2006-08-14:Log

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09:08 <@ss> Shall we get started?
09:08 <@ss> peeja: froodian's watching at least?
09:08 < peeja> er
09:08 < peeja> gah!
09:09 < peeja> yeah, he can be
09:09 <@ss> :)
09:09 -!- ss changed the topic of #camino-mtg to: 

09:09 <@ss> ardissone|away: (Sorry about giving you the wrong date.)
09:09 < ardissone|away> ;)
09:09 <@ss> Right, let's get stuff for pinkerton out of the way first.
09:09 <@ss> He has to leave in ~30 minutes.
09:10 <@ss> Everyone pop open the wiki link.
09:10 <@ss> The big thing we need to talk about is planning for 1.1.
09:10 <@ss> I think mainly we're waiting on RSS (as has been said)
09:10 <@ss> As soon as RSS is done, we should polish up a bit and push out an alpha.
09:10 <@ss> pinkerton: You agree with that?
09:10 <@pinkerton> sure
09:10 <@ss> I don't expect Keychain to make 1.1.
09:10 <@pinkerton> what about the debacle that is popup blocking?
09:11 <@ss> It needs to get fixed, but there are no patches yet.
09:11 <@ss> I say move it to a2 or b1.
09:11 < kreeger> whats the hold up there?
09:11 < ardissone|away> it needs some decisions, too
09:11 <@ss> kreeger: With which?
09:11 <@ss> Yeah, it does.
09:11 < kreeger> the popup
09:11 < kreeger> i know the rss holdup ;-)
09:11 <@ss> Coders?
09:12 <@ss> We need people to do the coding mainly.
09:12 < kreeger> duh, whats the issue
09:12 < ardissone|away> there's a meta with 7-8 bugs
09:12 < kreeger> UI changes?
09:12 <@ss> Yeah.
09:12 < delliott> ss: Historically speaking, there should be no new features when you reach 
                  beta stage.
09:12 <@ss> delliott: We're not like most apps.
09:12 <@pinkerton> kreeger: putting it back into the status bar for people that hate the 
09:12 <@pinkerton> kreeger: as a pref
09:12 < kreeger> as an option/pref?
09:12 < kreeger> oh ok
09:12 < peeja> and changing the look of it (ian)
09:12 < peeja> and making it wrap (ian)
09:12 <@ss> Just a bit, but yeah.
09:12 < peeja> look at the meta
09:12 < delliott> ss: Granted, but it might be nice to try and stick to the tried and tested.
09:12 < ardissone|away> and fixing whitelisting (hwaara)
09:12 < kreeger> im familiar with that chunk of code from the original RSS implementation, i 
                 can do it after RSS
09:13 <@ss> pinkerton: For you, bz gave you another comment in 
09:13 < ardissone|away> (and a11y)
09:13 <@ss> Yeah, a11y is a big one too.
09:13 < peeja> mhm
09:13 <@ss> Next
09:13 <@ss> We *need* a decision on
09:13 < kreeger> does anyone have that meta bug number for the popup view?
09:14 <@ss> pinkerton, mento: That's for you.
09:14 <@pinkerton> i hate blind people. they are teh suck
09:14 <@ss> You all need to come to a consensus.
09:14 < ardissone|away> kreeger: it's in the "bugs needing action" section
09:14 < kreeger> ah ok
09:14 <@ss> froodian can have the patch done (or is it already?) if we get a consensus.
09:15 < peeja> it is already
09:15 < ardissone|away> there's a patch for each way
09:15 <@ss> That's a regression that needs to get fixed.
09:15 < kreeger> GetCurrentKeyModifiers() isn't going to be around forever right?
09:15 <@ss> pinkerton: Hash it out and make a call, please.
09:15 <@mento> what's wrong with alternates?
09:15 <@mento> i know i sound like a broken record
09:15 < ardissone|away> kreeger: it also breaks 3rd-party mice
09:16 <@mento> but this is precisely what modifierless alternates exist for
09:16 < ardissone|away> smfr is worried about perf
09:16 <@pinkerton> i defer to mento
09:17 <@mento> i think we should try alternates.  if perf sucks ass, we can revisit it.
09:17 <@ss> Is that a decision?
09:17 <@mento> sure.
09:17 <@ss> mento: Can you put that in the bug?
09:17 < ardissone|away> sounds like a plan
09:17 <@ss> Next
09:17 <@ss> Let's talk about and 
09:17 <@ss> Overall, how does that look to people?
09:17 <@ss> The proposal froodian has is good to me.
09:18 <@ss> One comment we talked about was the Spelling menu
09:18 <@ss> Typically, the Spelling menu is in the same "grouping" as the Find menu (in most 
            apps), but we don't have a Find menu
09:18 <@pinkerton> and the bug to create one was just WONTFIX'd
09:18 <@ss> Right
09:19 <@pinkerton> why is "search the web" in edit?
09:19 <@ss> Does Spelling look weird on its own?
09:19 < delliott> ss: Is Camino Support going to be offline?
09:19 <@ss> delliott: No
09:19 <@ss> There's a bug.
09:19 <@ss> One sec
09:19 < peeja> pinkerton: because it's really a "find" option.  it doesn't *go* anywhere, it 
               just focuses the search bar
09:19  * peeja is froodian atm
09:19 <@ss> It does go places if the search bar is hidden, no?
09:19 <@pinkerton> yeah, but that's still not edit
09:19 <@ss> delliott:
09:20 <@ss> delliott: Err...
09:20 <@ss> pinkerton: Where should it be moved to?
09:21 < ardissone|away> Safari has it with the Finds stuff, too
09:21 <@pinkerton> beats me, but edit seems way wrong
09:21 <@ss> History?
09:21 <@ss> Bookmarks?
09:21 <@ss> They all seem a bit wrong.
09:21 < ardissone|away> it's random anywhere we put it
09:21 < delliott> ss: Is it necessary?
09:21 <@pinkerton> i don't have a good suggestion
09:21 < peeja> delliott: yes, for keyboard
09:22 < ardissone|away> file, with open location?
09:22 <@pinkerton> perhaps
09:22 < ardissone|away> :P
09:22 <@pinkerton> it does about the same thing
09:22 <@ss> Actually, yeah...
09:22 < delliott> What about Window
09:22 <@ss> I'd be okay with that.
09:22 < kreeger> ardissone|away: what was that bug you wanted me to review
09:22 < peeja> i'd dig File
09:22 <@pinkerton> ok, done. in file
09:22 <@pinkerton> next
09:22 < delliott> Since it is part of the Window.
09:22  * peeja will edit his wiki page
09:23 <@ss> pinkerton: We need on 
            someone's radar.
09:23 -!- peeja is now known as froodian
09:23 <@ss> pinkerton: Some spell check person.
09:23 <@pinkerton> who regressed it?
09:23 <@pinkerton> and does it happen in ff too?
09:23 <@ss> I think brettw
09:23 <@ss> There are three potential bugs.
09:23 < ardissone|away> i can't grab current builds, so i cant check
09:23 <@ss> ardissone|away: This is your bug...
09:24 <@ss> We can check
09:24 <@pinkerton> so it should block 1.9?
09:24 <@ss> But if it doesn't, I'd be it regresses CocoaFox
09:24 < ardissone|away> no, 181
09:24 <@ss> It should block 1.8.1 if it's that serious
09:24 < ardissone|away> it's sucky now
09:24 <@pinkerton> this isn't on the 1.8.0 branch is it?
09:24 <@pinkerton> it's on the 18branch
09:24 <@ss> No, just 1.8.1
09:24 <@ss> Yeah
09:24 <@pinkerton> it won't regress 1.8.1 if it's only on the 1.8 branch
09:24 < ardissone|away> since spelling is too active, even typing gets slowed sometimes
09:25 <@pinkerton> 1.8.1 is from the 1.8.0 branch
09:25 < ardissone|away> delete is just noticeable
09:25 <@ss> pinkerton: Huh?
09:25 < ardissone|away> ?
09:25 <@ss> pinkerton: 1.8.1 is from the 1.8 branch
09:25 <@pinkerton> yes, at the time 1.8 was released
09:25 <@ss> For Fx2 and ... Cm1.1
09:25 <@ss> Right
09:25 <@pinkerton> it only contains security and crash fixees
09:25 <@ss> 1.8.1 doesn't.
09:25 <@pinkerton> 1.8branch is for ff2
09:25 < ardissone|away> no, 181 =18
09:25 <@ss> Right.
09:25 <@ss> 1.8.1 hasn't branched yet.
09:25 <@pinkerton> so what's the branch for security fixes?
09:25 <@pinkerton> 1.8.0?
09:25 <@ss>
09:26 <@ss> 1.8.0.x
09:26 <@pinkerton> oh
09:26 <@ss> Don't confuse me. ;)
09:26  * pinkerton kicks moco
09:26 <@ss> Yeah.
09:26 < ardissone|away> ja
09:26 <@ss> We can ask Stuart to check Fx as well.
09:26 <@pinkerton> ok wait
09:26 <@pinkerton> what's 1.9 then?
09:26 <@ss> trunk
09:26 < ardissone|away> both bugs are brettw
09:26 < ardissone|away> trunk
09:26 <@pinkerton> oh
09:26 <@pinkerton> gah
09:26 < kreeger> heh
09:27 <@pinkerton> yah, so blocking 1.8.1 is right. sorry.
09:27 < ardissone|away> he's cc'd to our bug but so far has said/done nothing
09:27 < kreeger> they change the version branding of trunk about once a month
09:27 ! ss invited Wevah into the channel.
09:27 -!- Wevah [] has joined #camino-mtg
09:27 <@pinkerton> i'll bug him
09:27 <@ss> Wevah: Did you still have a question re: 
09:27 <@ss> pinkerton: Thanks
09:27 < ardissone|away> pinkerton: thanks
09:27 < Wevah> it's not really that important
09:28 < froodian> so with searc hthe web moved, do we have a consensus on 
09:28 < ardissone|away> well, i'd like to see that patch land, so ask ;)
09:28 < Wevah> i'm just wondering what people's thoughts are on where to put the 'put this 
               image in the titlebar' logic should go
09:28 <@ss> froodian: Yes. To File.
09:28 < froodian> ss: i know.  i just mean, is everything else a thumbs up?
09:28 < ardissone|away> ss: he means overall, make it so
09:28 <@ss> Oh
09:28 <@ss> Yes.
09:28 < Wevah> i'm inclined to put most if it in BrowserWindow; i.e., let it control its own 
09:28 <@ss> froodian: a=me
09:28 <@ss> froodian: a=pink
09:28 < delliott> froodian: Can I recommend we remove "Camino support"
09:28 < delliott> I've read the bug filed with it
09:28 < Wevah> similar to how the URL bar does its own lock insertion
09:28 < froodian> delliott: why?
09:29 < delliott> And Camino Help redirects to what logically is the Camino Support page.
09:29 < froodian> but it doesn't, because people still email feedback w/ support
09:29 < ardissone|away> Camino help is the support docs
09:29 < Wevah> that way i also won't get in the way of people who are doing lots of futzing 
               with BWC
09:29 <@mento> people are going to email feedback with support requests anyway
09:29 < delliott> froodian: People should only be e-mailing feedback if they cannot 
                  understand how to solve their problem.
09:29 <@mento> the only way to stop receiving support requests is to not make any contact 
               information at all available
09:29 <@mento> and then pinkerton would get it all 
09:30 < delliott> And if they cannot solve their problem then the support page needs 
09:30 < ardissone|away> moving it out of Help should help cut down on it
09:30 < froodian> but with a support menu item we can direct the vast majority of it to the 
09:30 < froodian> and what ardissone|away said
09:30 < ardissone|away> seriously, people need to @$@#$ read
09:30 < delliott> The forums is a terrible idea for people like my Mum.
09:30 < delliott> I've read the bug, I'll post comments in there.
09:30 < froodian> delliott: it's what we have for support
09:30 < froodian> people can't handle support docs
09:30 < froodian> they need live people
09:31 <@ss> mento: Can you look at ?
09:31 < froodian> the live people solution is forums
09:31 < ardissone|away> (are we still hidden on mz?)
09:31 <@ss> pinkerton: Overall, we need lots of decisions for the bugs in 
09:31 <@ss> pinkerton: Getting those decisions can help froodian (and now kreeger) get to 
            work on coding.
09:31 < delliott> froodian: Shall we chat about this later?
09:32 <@ss> Yes please.
09:32 <@mento> ss: 343296 CCing self- do you know if cocoafox is affected?
09:32 <@ss> mento: I don't, but I'd assume that it is. I can test if you comment and remind 
09:33 < ardissone|away> it may be the way we do CMs, though
09:33 < ardissone|away> that's what i read from pink's comment
09:33 <@mento> that's why i ax
09:33 <@ss> mento: I'll check. When will there be nightlies of cocoafox?
09:33 <@mento> when someone fixes the tinderbox (on Firefox-Cairo)
09:34 <@ss> k
09:34 <@mento> (not the cairo-cocoa one, just the -cocoa one)
09:34 < kreeger> ss: you can build one your self
09:34 <@ss> pinkerton: You leaving?
09:34 <@ss> kreeger: I don't build.
09:34 < ardissone|away> josh has an old build up
09:34 <@ss> I know
09:34 < ardissone|away> (old = 2-3 weeks)
09:34 <@ss> So, let's do a quick triage update.
09:34 < kreeger> if i find time ill cut a build to post
09:35 < ardissone|away> there wer 125 bugs on the 1.1 llist when i went to sleep
09:35 <@ss> :)
09:35 < ardissone|away> it's not as bad as it seems
09:35 <@ss> ardissone|away: Where did you stop at?
09:35 < ardissone|away> ss: i finished
09:35 <@ss> Oh
09:35 <@ss> Awesome.
09:35 <@ss> :)
09:35 <@ss> So, there are currently 125 bugs targeted for 1.1
09:35 <@ss> Some of those are website (which are mine)
09:35 < ardissone|away> there are lots of little one that will be easy for ian to knock out
09:35 <@ss> A lot of those have patches already.
09:35 < ardissone|away> if the queue keeps moving
09:36 -!- kreeger is now known as kreeger-lunch
09:36 <@pinkerton> l8r
09:36 <@ss> Overall, we're doing well for 1.1 and can hopefully get there before the end of 
            the year.
09:36 < delliott> ardissone|away: Do you have a list of the bugs for 1.1?
09:36 < froodian> delliott: read the wiki page
09:36 < ardissone|away> queries at the bottom of the page
09:36 < delliott> Sweet, you guys think of everything.
09:37  * ardissone|away repeats his comment about people reading :P
09:37 <@ss> Yeah... :)
09:37 <@ss> We're hitting some reviewing issues as far as timing goes.
09:37 < froodian> ^^ ++
09:37 <@ss> pinkerton has been pretty quick with SRs (compared to previously).
09:37 <@ss> The big issues are regular Rs.
09:38 <@ss> With hwaara out and, earlier, kreeger, it was all to smorgan
09:38 <@ss> And was far too much
09:38 <@ss> kreeger-lunch: You up for doing more reviews now?
09:38 < ardissone|away> we have too many bugs blocking work for want of review
09:39 <@ss> Exactly.
09:39 <@ss> Wevah: You up for doing any reviews in the next week or two?
09:39 < ardissone|away> and the way our themes for 1.1 are set up, we can't have that
09:39 < froodian> and nobody except for people who arleady knew that is listening anymore :(
09:39 < Wevah> sure
09:40 < froodian> :)
09:40 < froodian> ok, so with pink no longer listening... is this meeting over?
09:41 < ardissone|away> mento: do you have any ideas on 
09:41 <@ss> Well, I knew he'd be leaving at 9:30...
09:41 < ardissone|away> that's also going to require some thought
09:41 < froodian> i thought we said an hour, but ok
09:41 <@ss> We did
09:41 <@ss> But he had to leave early.
09:41 <@mento> ok, well for that bug
09:41 < froodian> ah
09:42 -!- froodian is now known as peeja
09:42 <@mento> where's the string that we need come from, and can we just put it into 
09:42 < ardissone|away> it's in one of the properties files in embed.jar
09:42 <@mento> and it's already branded in there, so we can't use it?
09:43 < ardissone|away> with (null) as $1$2 iirc
09:43 <@mento> oh, ick
09:43 < ardissone|away> so we could s/$1$2/Camino/ that file
09:43 < ardissone|away> possibly
09:44 <@mento> that's the easiest way to get this fixed
09:44 <@ss> That's probably the best way for 1.0.x
09:44 < ardissone|away> I'll look at the file and make sure that's unique
09:44 < ardissone|away> does anyone at Mo* care about the branding bug at all?
09:45 <@ss> Oh, right.
09:45 <@ss> We need to do that soon.
09:45 <@mento> certainly not
09:45 <@ss> Next meeting!
09:45 <@ss> They should
09:45 <@ss> It says they own us or whatever.
09:45 < ardissone|away> ss: no, different bug
09:45 <@ss> Oh
09:45 < ardissone|away> "embedded apps need to be able to ship branding"
09:46 < ardissone|away> the other bug we need to get thinking on re 1.1 is the bookmarks loss
09:47 < ardissone|away> specificially, that the process of writing the "recovery" corrputed 
                        file seems to fail
09:47 <@ss> Yeah.
09:47 < ardissone|away>
09:47 < ardissone|away> smfr suspects it's something with spotlight
09:47 <@ss> mento:
09:47 < ardissone|away> so far he's the only dev who's actually seen it
09:48 <@ss> Right
09:48 <@ss> We need to get to the bottom of it, but I'm not sure how.
09:48 < ardissone|away> but we just had another round of irate users recently
09:48 < ardissone|away> well, ex-users :(
09:49 <@mento> spotlight tries to open plists?
09:49 <@mento> could be some antivirus crap too
09:50 < ardissone|away> (they're both missing the "security check" issue that causes Wevah's 
09:51 <@ss> Right, so... more or less finished now.
09:51 <@ss> :)
09:52 < ardissone|away> so, i'll be much more gone for a while now
09:52 <@ss> How long?
09:52 < ardissone|away> dunno
09:52 <@ss> k
09:52 <@ss> Don't go too far. ;)
09:53 < delliott> Are we done with the agenda of the meeting?
09:53 <@ss> Yes.
09:53 < delliott> As a point of AOCB, can I request a meeting on 29/8 for post SoC ?
09:54 < delliott> Or sometime around that date.
09:54 <@ss> I'd like to have weekly meetings, personally. :)
09:54 <@ss> So like, next Monday.
09:54 < delliott> Next Monday is the final day of SoC so I doubt I'll be in any fit state to 
09:55 <@ss> That's fine.
09:55 <@ss> I just meant in general.
09:55 < delliott> So Monday in 2 weeks time.
09:55 < delliott> So that one may recover from this week.
09:55 < ardissone|away> we can go ahead and put it on the agenda for 2 weeks from now
09:55 < ardissone|away> ;)
09:55 <@ss> :)
09:55 < delliott> Ok, just wanted to request it in advance.
09:55 < delliott> ardissone|away: New patch btw
09:55 < ardissone|away> :)
09:56 < delliott> I knocked it up this morning after looking at my code from Friday and 
                  wondering WTF I had done.
10:05 <@pinkerton> anything you really need my comment on?
10:05 <@pinkerton> sorry
10:06 <@ss> pinkerton: I think we're good.
10:06 <@ss> pinkerton: Another meeting next Monday?
10:07 < ardissone|away> mento: did embed-replacements stuff land on 1.8.0?
10:08 <@ss> Yes.
10:14 <@pinkerton> ok