Status Meetings:2006-08-28:Log

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09:05 <@ss|work> Alright.
09:05 <@ss|work> Welcome everyone to another weekly meeting
09:05 <@ss|work> Please open the wiki page and follow along.
09:05 <@ss|work>
09:05 <@ss|work> First up, I hand the floor to delliott who's going to talk about SoC 
09:05 <@ardissone|away> (lots of stuff today)
09:05 <@delliott> Thanks.
09:05 <@delliott> I'll try to keep this quick seeing as the list is long.
09:06 <@delliott> We learnt at Uni that it's important to chat about things after a project
09:06 <@delliott> Mike and I have finished our evaluations
09:06 <@delliott> I wrote down that he smells
09:06 <@delliott> I thought I'd start by saying that as a newcomer, the community was 
                  pretty receptive.
09:07 <@delliott> Everybody did what they could to make me feel like part of the team
09:07 <@ardissone|away> :)
09:07 <@delliott> And that is not easy when new people show up and start wailing about 
                  build errors.
09:07 <@pinkerton> i do smell, and i cry a lot
09:07 <@peeja> had me fooled when i got here. :)
09:08 <@delliott> It's not too hard to get involved in the dev community so that is a good 
09:08 <@delliott> We are working on our build docs so hopefully more people will get 
                  involved too
09:08 <@ardissone|away> (hopefully next week...)
09:08 <@delliott> Onto the progress of the project.
09:09 <@delliott> As we all know, I didn't finish the code.
09:09 <@ss|work> booo
09:09 <@ss|work> hisss
09:09 <@delliott> But I am still here, so it is pretty safe to say that it will be 
09:09 <@froodian> code is never finished
09:09 <@ss|work> ;)
09:09 <@froodian> you accomplished a lot regardless
09:09 <@hwaara> code is always buggy :(
09:09 <@hwaara> :)
09:09 <@peeja> and there were some bumps along the way... :(
09:09 <@ardissone|away> it was great just to be able to drag tabs for a bit :)
09:10  * ardissone|away hides
09:10 <@delliott> I took a lot of criticism from lots of different people about my project 
                  this summer and I took it personally when I should have taken it more as 
                  an interest in what I was doing.
09:10 <@delliott> So I'm gonna apologise for moaning in the channel.
09:11 <@delliott> But it has all turned out well because now I think I know the difference 
                  between moaners and people who have genuine feedback.
09:11 <@froodian> :)
09:11 <@ss|work> *cough* smorgan *cough*
09:11 <@delliott> Hehe
09:12 <@delliott> I need to do a little more work on bug 319777 and hopefully it will R+
09:12 <@delliott> Bug 160720 is a whole different level of pain
09:13 <@delliott> Mainly because we have lots of different views and getting to the right 
                  one can be problematic
09:13 <@hwaara> (unfortunately there's no bot here to tell what the bugs are about)
09:13 <@delliott> So yes, I didn't finish the code but seeing as I'd never written Obj-C 
                  before, I'm not too gutted.
09:13 ! ss|work invited thebot into the channel.
09:13 -!- thebot [pid-12949@2E23C0E1.1B475606.C8C62208.IP] has joined #camino-mtg
09:14 <@froodian> (first one is scrolling, second one is dragging)
09:14 <@hwaara> ah, thx
09:14 <@delliott> Dragging between windows is a subset of dragging
09:14 <@delliott> Once you can drag it will be a minor tweak to drag between windows
09:14 <@ss|work> On to the criticism!
09:14 <@ss|work> ;)
09:14 <@delliott> Positive stuff first
09:15 <@ss|work> Oh, right.
09:15 <@delliott> This is where everybody can join in.
09:15 <@delliott> So, positive points...
09:15 <@froodian> lots of new camino code!
09:15 <@ardissone|away> we didn't scare you off :)
09:15 <@froodian> good tab stuff in line for future releases
09:15 <@froodian> heh
09:15 <@froodian> yeah
09:15 <@ss|work> We've got a new lifer.
09:15 <@delliott> ardissone|away: I nearly left after I killed my MacBook :p
09:16 <@ardissone|away> :(
09:16 <@BruceD> someone new learns that Obj-C and the Camino code in ObjC is different, 
                but not actually scary
09:16 <@delliott> I quite enjoyed the challenge of working with people around the world
09:16 <@hwaara> great to see progress on the tabs bugs that we'd been fighting about before
09:17 <@delliott> Until you actually get stuck into open-source you have these magical 
                  ideas about what it might be like
09:17 <@hwaara> lots of patience and gray hair
09:17 <@delliott> One of the other positive things might be that the project has somebody 
                  who is fiddling with the tab code again
09:17 <@hwaara> and perseverance :)
09:17 <@froodian> cool
09:17 <@froodian> criticism?
09:17 <@ardissone|away> !!!!
09:17 <@delliott> Constructive criticism, fire away.
09:18 <@ss|work> I was actually looking for it from you, delliott.
09:18 <@delliott> Ok
09:18 <@ss|work> :)
09:18 <@ardissone|away> mhm
09:18 <@delliott> I'll start by saying that what I tried to achieve was ridiculous.
09:18 <@peeja> yes.
09:18 <@delliott> Considering my total lack of experience in Obj-C / Mozilla
09:19 <@peeja> thank god for people who take on the ridiculous. :)
09:19  * hwaara is in the same situation, fwiw
09:19 <@delliott> If we put out bounties for next year we need to think about whether or 
                  not we want to take on a wild child or somebody who can already code.
09:20 <@delliott> I found the reviews system gruelling. Though the people reviewing the 
                  code probably found it worse!
09:20 <@hwaara> why?
09:21 <@delliott> Perhap because the patches I was writing were larger than many first 
09:21 <@hwaara> was it the system or the reviews in itself? :)
09:22 <@delliott> The system is fine, I think I just found the reviews difficult.
09:22 <@delliott> But most people probably don't try to submit big patches from the start
09:22 <@BruceD> Yeah, its very difficult getting code past good reviewers, until you've 
                had (lots of) practice
09:23 <@delliott> BruceD: Yes, but now I think "What will the reviewer say?"
09:23 <@pinkerton> generally the problem is getting people to do reviews and it getting 
                   backed up
09:23 <@delliott> So it makes a better coder out of you if you can stick it.
09:23 <@froodian> pinkerton: yes
09:23 <@ss|work> pinkerton: Which is something we're going to talk about later.
09:23 <@BruceD> yeah. you're later code is much better structured than your early patches
09:23 <@pinkerton> ok
09:23 <@froodian> speaking of which, we should keep this moving
09:23 <@ss|work> Yeah, we should.
09:23 <@hwaara> how much later?
09:23 <@ss|work> Today.
09:23 <@delliott> I cannot criticise much of the Camino team
09:23 <@delliott> Just myself
09:23 <@delliott> Conclusion
09:24 ! ss|work invited _Tsk_ into the channel.
09:24 <@delliott> Had a great time, nearly gave up, fought on, am still here. Beer!
09:24 <@froodian> :D
09:24 <@hwaara> nice!
09:24 <@delliott> Oh, and we need to pester Hofmann for the $500
09:24 <@ss|work> Awesome.
09:24 <@ss|work> That's pinkerton's job.
09:24 <@hwaara> can we move the review topic up a bit?
09:24 <@ardissone|away> :)
09:25 <@ss|work> It's not as important as the rest, actually...
09:25 <@delliott> Ok, I'm done. Thanks for reading :)
09:25 <@ss|work> mento: This next one is mainly for yo.
09:25 <@ss|work> you*
09:25 <@hwaara> it's important for some of us..
09:25 <@ss|work> Who can we bug when we have tbox issues during the "off hours"
09:25 <@froodian> hwaara: we'll get there
09:25 <@ss|work> hwaara: I'm not saying it's not important, just not "as" important.
09:25 <@mento> ss|work:
09:25 <@mento> #build
09:25 <@mento> preed
09:25 <@mento> coop
09:25 <@hwaara> it's dinner time here, but whatever
09:25 <@mento> rhelmer
09:25 <@ardissone|away> alos, pawn needs its crash dialogs reset
09:25 <@ss|work> mento: Alright, because currently we've been having a lot of red/orang.
09:26 <@mento> so has the trunk
09:26 <@ss|work> Yeah, what ardissone|away said.
09:26 <@ss|work> mento: Sure, but we've had more. ;)
09:26 <@ardissone|away> starting at 5pm on Fridays :/
09:26 <@mento> yeah, a little bit more
09:26 <@ss|work> And things like lost perf is going to be hellish...
09:26 <@mento> let me check pawn's dialogs now
09:26 <@ss|work> (later anyway)
09:26 <@ss|work> Next:
09:26 <@ardissone|away> maybe maya, too, since the trunk was fubared
09:27 <@ss|work> 1.0.3
09:27 <@ss|work> We have three patches that need landing.
09:27 <@ardissone|away> we have 3 patches ready
09:27 <@ardissone|away> kreeger was gonna land them this am
09:27 <@ss|work> It's very important that we get them in sooner rather than later.
09:27 <@mento> 7 crash dialogs closed
09:27 <@ss|work> So we have time to get everything in.
09:27 <@ss|work> Yuck
09:27 <@mento> thank you for pointing that out
09:27 <@ardissone|away> but obviously he didn't shwo
09:27 <@ardissone|away> mento: np
09:27 <@ss|work> So, does anyone have time to land three patches?
09:28 <@ardissone|away> (can we get #build to do that, too)
09:28 <@ss|work> (On the 1.8.0 branch)
09:28 <@ss|work> Anyone able to check it in?
09:28 <@pinkerton> mento: thx i was just doing that
09:29 <@ardissone|away> ss|work: kreeger seemed ok with doing it
09:29 <@ss|work> Alright. I'll bug him more.
09:29 <@ss|work> We're looking good for 1.0.3
09:29 <@ss|work> But we still need to know about bug 175651
09:29 <@mento> pinkerton: np
09:29 < thebot> ss|work: Bug maj, --, 
                Camino1.1,, ASSI, CJK (at least Chinese and 
                Japanese) font Preferences changes not applied to any CJK Web page
09:29 <@ss|work> mento: You goingt o have time this week for that bug?
09:29 <@ss|work> going to*
09:29 <@mento> probly
09:29  * ss|work crosses his fingers
09:30 <@ardissone|away> :)
09:30 <@ss|work> mento: Next question for you, what needs to be done for bug 343837?
09:30 <@ardissone|away> also, what do we want to do about the fubared ciphers dialog on 
09:30 < thebot> ss|work: Bug maj, --, 
                Camino1.1,, NEW, SSL2/weak ciphers disabled messages 
                contain "(null)" instead of "Camino"
09:30 <@ardissone|away>     *  Leave it as is
09:30 <@ardissone|away>     * Patch the string to say "Camino and this site" (lose dynamic 
09:30 <@mento> ardissone|away: you said that we can't really fix it, right?
09:30 <@mento> yeah
09:31 <@mento> it looks bad as it is now
09:31 <@ardissone|away> we could patch the string like that, but yeah
09:31 <@mento> but i think it's important to have the hostname in the string
09:31 <@ardissone|away> k
09:31 <@ardissone|away> so we do nothing there for 10x
09:31 <@ss|work> Awesome.
09:31 <@ss|work> Everything else for 1.0.3 will probably not make it.
09:32 <@ss|work> Next:
09:32 <@ss|work> 1.1
09:32 <@ardissone|away> i'd like to try and get bugs landed and relnotes ready by Fri
09:32 <@ss|work> We're _slowly_ progressing.
09:32 <@ss|work> 2 bugs/week isn't that good
09:32 <@ss|work> But it is progression.
09:32 <@ardissone|away> not as fast as 2 weeka ago
09:32 <@ardissone|away> 2 weeks ago we landed 5-8 bugs
09:32 <@ss|work> This is where kreeger would talk about RSS.
09:32 <@ss|work> But he's not here.
09:33 <@hwaara> I'd like to fix cmd-clicking/middle-clicking on bookmarks, but all 
                super-reviewers are swamped
09:33 <@froodian> the speed problem is due to reviewing
09:33 <@froodian> which leads us to our next issue
09:33 <@hwaara> it's a dogfood thingy
09:33 <@ss|work> The SR queue is actually good right now.
09:33 <@ss|work> Is the R queue that'
09:33 <@ss|work> s having problems
09:34 <@ardissone|away> mento: i have those proj patches for you and hwaara ;)
09:34 -!- SimonTheSoundMan [SimonTheSo@6F6BB858.80E17092.97A297A6.IP] has joined 
09:34 <@mento> nice, is it in my review q?
09:34 <@ardissone|away> sr q
09:34 <@ss|work> Yes.
09:34 <@ss|work> We have a lot of patches waiting for R.
09:34 <@mento> ok
09:34 <@ss|work> We need more reviewers over all...
09:34 <@froodian> and the most important one is haas's patch
09:34 <@ss|work> Yes.
09:35 <@ss|work> We *need* that reviewed.
09:35 <@froodian> somebody needs to take that in a major way
09:35 <@ss|work> And today we need someone to decide to review it.
09:35 <@ss|work> Who's up for it?
09:35 <@ardissone|away> it's not huge, but it's not tiny
09:36 <@ardissone|away> hwaara?
09:36 <@hwaara> I took a look
09:36 <@hwaara> I think the approach looks good
09:36 <@hwaara> I just hope the sr will know about threads :)
09:37 <@ss|work> Can you give it a full R then?
09:37 <@hwaara> (I do, but it's still not easy as a pie)
09:37 <@hwaara> ok
09:37 <@ss|work> So we can get it to the SR level?
09:37 <@hwaara> if I can get some kind of traction on my middle click bug in return :P
09:37 <@hwaara> it's been blocked for god knows how long
09:37 <@ss|work> hwaara: Does it have an sr?
09:37 <@ss|work> I haven't seen it in the queue...
09:37 <@hwaara> ss|work: no, it has nothing
09:38 <@hwaara> it's in pinkerton's sr queue
09:38 <@ardissone|away> no one wants to touch it :(
09:38 <@ss|work> pinkerton: Do you have time to look at the patch in bug 228840?
09:38 < thebot> ss|work: Bug enh, --, 
                Camino1.1,, NEW, Bookmarks toolbar - Middle-click should 
                open bookmark in new tab
09:38 <@hwaara> but pink don't have time, sfraser has said no too, and I've asked mento a 
                few times but I think it's too much for him too
09:38 <@ardissone|away> and smorgan is the review q
09:38 <@hwaara> ss|work: he said no in comment 41
09:39 <@ss|work> smorgan reviewed it before...
09:39 <@ss|work> Why don't we do this:
09:39 <@ss|work> You take a couple reviews of froodian's stuff from smorgan and give that 
                 one to smorgan.
09:40 <@froodian> i have some small stuff
09:40 <@ardissone|away> and when we see him, we'll promote that reviewv ;)
09:40 <@froodian> very small
09:40 <@hwaara> I can try, my time is limited too though
09:40 <@ss|work> hwaara: Most of froodian's stuff is pretty small.
09:40 <@froodian> hwaara: when the meeting's done i'll tell you which bugs you want ;)
09:40 <@hwaara> sure, target me!
09:40 <@froodian> k
09:41  * ardissone|away wonders how BruceD's schedule looks
09:41 <@hwaara> is anyone reviewing the RSS patches?
09:41 <@froodian> smorgan
09:41 <@ardissone|away> hwaara: smorgan was
09:41 <@BruceD> just peered at the review queue, most of the patches look bigger than I'm 
                going to have time to review properly
09:41 <@froodian> it's close
09:41 <@ardissone|away> k
09:42 <@froodian> next item?
09:42 <@ss|work> Sure
09:42 <@hwaara> BruceD: maybe if you divide some patch ?
09:42 <@ardissone|away> next mon is labor day
09:42 <@hwaara> I did that with torben's last zoom patch, it worked well
09:42 <@ss|work> Is everyone okay with moving the meeting to Tuesday?
09:42 <@ss|work> I know I'll be drunk next Monday.
09:42 <@BruceD> hwaara: what do you mean?
09:43 <@hwaara> BruceD: if it's some big patch where changes are in different places, it 
                has helped me in the past to divide the review in a few days
09:43 <@froodian> I'll have class at the time
09:43 <@hwaara> and do one part every day
09:43 <@froodian> on tuesday
09:43 <@peeja> fine with me
09:43 <@ss|work> Who else has an issue with Tuesday?
09:43 <@ss|work> pinkerton, mento:
09:43 <@Pinolo> fine with me too
09:44 <@mento> tuesday ok
09:44 <@BruceD> yeah, monday's are much better for me, as likely to be abroad for work by 
                Tuesday evening, and European hotels charge _shocking_ rates for WiFi :-(
09:44 <@ss|work> BruceD: Normally it'll be Monday
09:44 <@ss|work> Just next week we want to move it due to a holiday in the US.
09:44 <@BruceD> yeah, fine if u want to change just next weeks
09:45 <@ss|work> I'll assume pinkerton's okay with Tuesday morning unless he says 
09:45 <@ss|work> froodian: You can read the log. ;)
09:45 <@froodian> yup
09:45 <@ss|work> bug 311781
09:45 < thebot> ss|work: Bug nor, --, 
                Camino1.1,, ASSI, Fix toggle/non-toggle situation in 
                Bookmarks/History by adding a new shortcut
09:45 <@ss|work> What do we want to do there?
09:45 <@ss|work> Should there be three menu items?
09:45 <@ss|work> Or is "toggle" an alternate?
09:46 <@ardissone|away> toggle is the current "default" so i'm leery of hiding/changing it
09:46 <@froodian> i say three menu items
09:46 <@ardissone|away> although half the world seems to hate it
09:46 <@froodian> plus, that way we can use cmd-shift-M
09:46 <@froodian> which is much nicer than cmd-opt-B
09:46 <@froodian> (just for ease of hitting)
09:47 <@ss|work> I'm alright with three menu items...
09:47 <@peeja> why can't cmd-B just close the BM if bookmarks are up?
09:47 <@froodian> so cmd-Y = show history, cmd-B = show bookmarks, cmd-shift-M = toggle 
09:47 <@ss|work> I'm not sure how that'll look visually.
09:47 <@peeja> and cmd-Y if history is up?
09:47 <@froodian> peeja: because it's lopsided with history
09:48 <@peeja> lopsided?
09:48 <@froodian> cmd-b is a toggle
09:48 <@ardissone|away> y always focuses history
09:48 <@froodian> cmd-y isn't
09:48 <@ss|work> peeja: If I hit cmd-b click on the "history" collection, what closes the 
09:48 <@Pinolo> I don't see much the point
09:48 <@peeja> ss|work: don't know off the top of my head
09:48 <@ss|work> :)
09:48 <@ardissone|away> Cmd-Y either shows the mgr and history, or switches to history in 
                        a shown mgr
09:49 <@froodian> ok.  so, so cmd-Y = show history, cmd-B = show bookmarks, cmd-shift-M = 
                  toggle manager.  three menu items.  three toolbar items.
09:49 <@froodian> does anybody have a problem iwth that?
09:49 <@froodian> pinkerton: a=you?
09:49 <@Pinolo> Apart from reporter are ther many peolple who think that current behaviour 
                is wrong?
09:49 <@delliott> It has never bugged me.
09:49 <@ardissone|away> Pinolo: yes, people file bugs all the time
09:49 <@ardissone|away> complain in the forum
09:49 <@delliott> I never even noticed what this bug describes
09:49 <@ardissone|away> dunno about feedback
09:49 <@froodian> delliott: you'd also never noticed tab groups
09:49 <@Pinolo> ok, tnx ardissone
09:50 <@hwaara> ok, gotta go now
09:50 <@BruceD> three menu and toolbar items sounds horrible, though I sort of like the 
                key combos
09:50 <@hwaara> was this the last item?
09:50 <@peeja> froodian: here's what i don't like:
09:50 <@froodian> hwaara: not even close
09:50 <@ardissone|away> hwaara: 2-3 more bugs
09:50 -!- _Tsk_ [ludovic@183BDF58.599B7C47.C7DB8B78.IP] has joined #camino-mtg
09:50 <@peeja> if you hit cmd-b by accient, you have to press cmd-opt-B to undo it
09:50 <@ardissone|away> there's Ludo
09:50 <@hwaara> ok
09:50 <@hwaara> later all
09:50 <@Pinolo> hi Ludo!
09:50 <@froodian> peeja: or back
09:50 < _Tsk_> sorry fogot and had network issues
09:50 -!- hwaara [hwaara@5718B00C.2191EBAD.7EF74A51.IP] has left #camino-mtg []
09:50 <@BruceD> why not just make cmd+Y a toggle too!?
09:51 <@Pinolo> mmmm, cmd-shift-M....
09:51 <@ardissone|away> BruceD: don't go there ;)
09:51 <@peeja> i'm with BruceD, myself...
09:51 <@ardissone|away> there are old bugs suggesting that; see pink's reaction there
09:51 <@froodian> so if you're in bookmarks and hit history, the bookmarks manager closes?
09:51 <@ardissone|away> (i filed one of them)
09:51 < _Tsk_> # ?
09:52 <@ardissone|away> _Tsk_: bug Bug 311781
09:52 <@peeja> no, if you're in bms, history comes up
09:52 < thebot> ardissone|away: Bug 
                nor, --, Camino1.1,, ASSI, Fix toggle/non-toggle 
                situation in Bookmarks/History by adding a new shortcut
09:52 <@froodian> peeja: but then it's not a toggle
09:52 <@ss|work> So it's a conditional toggle.
09:52 <@ss|work> Which is weird.
09:52 <@froodian> cmd-b ALWAYS toggles the manager
09:52 <@ardissone|away> _Tsk_: first bug in "Bugs that need action" on the wiki agenda
09:52 <@froodian> (now)
09:52 <@peeja> i don't find it weird.
09:52 <@peeja> i find it intuitive
09:52 <@froodian> it's still lopsided
09:52 <@pinkerton> right, history should not be a conditional toggle
09:52  * _Tsk_ dosen't follow the wiki
09:53 <@ardissone|away> _Tsk_: the /topic
09:53 <@peeja> you can see bookmarks, or history, or none.
09:53 <@peeja> asking for what you don't see brings it up.
09:53 <@ardissone|away> no
09:53 <@BruceD> if you're viewing history and hit cmd+B that should change to the bookmarks
09:53 <@peeja> asking for what you're looking at toggles it away
09:53 <@froodian> this is why we want three
09:53 <@froodian> one for "asking what you want"
09:54 <@froodian> and one for toggling the whole manager
09:54 <@ss|work> pinkerton: Are you okay with adding a third item for "toggle manager"?
09:54 <@ardissone|away> right, what BruceD mentions is the problem with peeja's siggestion
09:54 <@pinkerton> no
09:54 <@peeja> i'm saying you can do it with two
09:54 <@ss|work> froodian: ^^
09:54 <@peeja> ardissone|away: how's that?
09:54  * peeja defers to pink
09:54 <@ardissone|away> peeja: if you're looking at history and hit cmd-b now, you don't 
                        see bookmarks, you close the mgr
09:55 <@froodian> ss|work: what am I looking at?  pinkerton saying no to third item?
09:55 <@froodian> so what're we going to do?
09:55 <@ss|work> froodian: Yeah.
09:55 <@peeja> ardissone|away: right, i meant in my suggestion. but it's past now.
09:55 <@pinkerton> i'm saying no to a 3rd item
09:55 <@froodian> what we have is lopsided and confusing
09:55 <@peeja> oh
09:55 <@froodian> pinkerton: ok.  but what we have is lopsided and confusing.  what should 
                  we do instead?
09:56 <@pinkerton> there is no perfect solution
09:56 <@froodian> conditional toggle is out, 3rd item is out...
09:56 <@pinkerton> we'll stick with what we have, moving along
09:56 <@froodian> k
09:56 <@ardissone|away> why is 3rd item worse than what we have now?
09:56 <@froodian> Bug 287708
09:56 <@ardissone|away> sigh
09:56 < thebot> froodian: Bug tri, --, 
                Camino1.2,, NEW, When adding bookmark, "bookmark bar" 
                should be above "bookmarks menu" in "Create In" menu
09:56 <@froodian> everybody read what i wrote on the wiki page
09:56 <@ss|work> "e've pretty much decided that we should do comment 9, but that's a big 
                 project. Is it ok with us for froodian to make the default selected 
                 folder be the bookmarks bar (instead of the top of the list) as a 
                 stop-gap measure?"
09:56 <@froodian> i just want a stop-gap solution until we can fix it properly
09:56 <@delliott> 1. No
09:57 <@froodian> delliott: wrong bug
09:57 <@froodian> (i think, since you're numbering it)
09:57 <@delliott> D'oh
09:57 <@BruceD> changing the default without re-ordering sounds like a sensible interim 
09:58 <@froodian> anybody else?  pink?
09:58 <@pinkerton> i haven't been folowing
09:58 <@froodian> see ss|work's big comment
09:58 <@pinkerton> recall i'm triple booked
09:58 <@froodian> a few lines up
09:58 <@froodian> i know, i'm sorry
09:59 <@ss|work> And add a "W" to the beginning of my comment.
09:59 -!- SimonTheSoundMan [SimonTheSo@6F6BB858.80E17092.97A297A6.IP] has quit [Quit: 
09:59 <@pinkerton> why can't we move the bookmark bar above it for everything?
09:59 <@froodian> because that's a big project too
10:00 <@froodian> (i think. that code is confusing as hell)
10:00 <@froodian> but i'd be willing to do that instead
10:00 <@pinkerton> get dhaas to fix it :)
10:00 <@ss|work> Haha
10:00 <@froodian> ok.  if that's your answer, that's ok
10:01 <@froodian> i already have a patch for just slecting bookmarks bar by default though
10:01 < _Tsk_> Anybody in touch with dhaas ?
10:01 <@froodian> so it'd be very very easy ;)
10:01 <@pinkerton> we should remember what the user chose, eg, if they're adding a bunch 
                   of bookmarks in a row to a folder, having to reselect that folder is a 
10:01 <@froodian> yeah, we'd still do that
10:01 <@pinkerton> we fixed that a long time ago (0.7?)
10:01 <@froodian> this is just for the first selection after launch
10:01 <@pinkerton> just default to bookmark bar if no previous selection?
10:01 <@pinkerton> i'm ok with that
10:01 <@froodian> yes
10:01 <@pinkerton> ship it
10:02 <@ss|work> Next
10:02 <@froodian> :D
10:02 <@ss|work> bug 159230
10:02 < thebot> ss|work: Bug nor, --, 
                Camino1.2,, NEW, Should be able to bookmark a page 
                without an intermediate dialog
10:02 <@froodian> smfr postulates in comment 0 that we shouldn't have the intermediate 
                  dialog by default
10:02 <@delliott> 1. No, 2. Dunno
10:03 <@froodian> 1 isn't a yes or no question ;)
10:03 <@ss|work> Heh
10:03 <@froodian> with the fix pinkerton just approved, not having a dialog would be ok 
                  for users
10:03 <@froodian> since they'd be able to see their new bookmarks
10:03 <@froodian> on the bookmarks bar
10:03 <@ss|work> I still think we should have it by default
10:03 <@froodian> note that whatever we decide here we should also do for dragging 
                  favicons to the bookmarks bar
10:03 <@pinkerton> cmd-shift-option-control-backspace-D?
10:03 <@froodian> (I think)
10:04 <@delliott> froodian: Then wtf does the question mean?
10:04 <@delliott> :p
10:04 <@ardissone|away> then no sheet ;)
10:04 <@delliott> pinkerton: Nice shortcut.
10:04 <@ardissone|away> sheet = intermediate dialogue ;)
10:04 <@froodian> delliott: it has two clauses.  the appropriate answers are "intermediate 
                  dialog" or "non-intermediate"
10:04 <@delliott> Intermediate dialog
10:05 <@froodian> why?
10:05 <@ss|work> What does Fx/Sf/Sm/Ow do?
10:05 <@delliott> You expect to be given the choice to name your bookmark.
10:05 <@peeja> i have to agree with delliott.
10:05 <@ardissone|away> to default to no dialogue, though, we have to fix tab grouping to 
                        be keyboard-based
10:06 <@froodian> ardissone|away: mmm, yeah
10:06 <@Pinolo> uhm
10:06 <@froodian> ok, so i'm cool with leaving it having a dialog by default
10:06 <@froodian> but that'd mean that dragging to the bm bar should too
10:06 <@ardissone|away> ew
10:06 <@froodian> which i know some people don't like
10:06 <@froodian> exactly
10:06 <@ardissone|away> ;)
10:06 <@ss|work> No, I don't think dragging to the bookmark bar should be the same.
10:06 <@froodian> unless we're willing to change the decision you guys made last week
10:06 <@ss|work> It's a different action.
10:06 <@BruceD> prefer no-sheet as the default. suspect tab grouping is quite infrequent
10:06 <@delliott> I like it.
10:06 <@froodian> well, that's what people said when i was gone
10:06 <@ss|work> Dragging and dropping is different.
10:06 <@delliott> A different action to achieve the same goal.
10:07 <@ardissone|away> it's also easier to rename ex post facto on the bar
10:07 <@ss|work> mhm
10:07 <@ardissone|away> you can do so without changing your viuew
10:07 <@froodian> ok, so are we ok with dialog by default on menu item, but no dialog for 
10:07 <@ardissone|away> yes
10:07 <@ss|work> a=me
10:07 <@delliott> I'm not ok with it, but that's neither here nor there.
10:07 <@froodian> (by default.  they'll both be possible)
10:07 <@Pinolo> the idea of changing the shortcut should have us thing very much before 
                making any changes
10:08 <@delliott> :p
10:08 <@froodian> right.  keyboard.
10:08 <@Pinolo> think
10:08 <@ardissone|away> we can revisit the dialog when we get tab grouping hooked up to 
                        the kybd
10:08 <@froodian> so, i propose we keep cmd-d for legacy
10:08 <@ss|work> I concur.
10:08 <@ardissone|away> right
10:08 <@froodian> but move to cmd-k for default keyboard shortcut
10:08 <@ss|work> With both of those statements.
10:08 <@ss|work> pinkerton: ^^
10:08 <@froodian> so that cmd-opt-K can be "bookmark without intermediate dialog"
10:09 <@pinkerton> huh?
10:09 <@pinkerton> cmd-k wha?
10:09 <@ss|work> pinkerton: Are you okay with changing the bookmark keyboard shortcut to 
                 cmd-k (so we can have alternates) but keep cmd-d as legacy?
10:09 <@Pinolo> is there a Camino shortcut map somewhere that we could keep ann eye on to 
                see if all makes sense?
10:09 <@froodian> the problem is that we need more bookmark-related keyboard shortcuts
10:10 <@delliott> Pinolo: Well volunteered!
10:10 <@froodian> but all modifiers concerned with D are taken
10:10 <@pinkerton> hmmm
10:10 <@ardissone|away> Pinolo: cbo/support
10:10 <@ss|work> But cbo is down currently
10:10 <@ardissone|away> :/
10:10 <@pinkerton> i guess we could play with it, but we absolutely have to continue 
                   supporting cmd-d
10:10 <@froodian> yes
10:10 <@ss|work> Of course.
10:10 <@froodian> absolutely
10:10 <@ardissone|away> absolutely
10:10 <@ss|work> Definitely.
10:10 <@delliott> Continue with the prospect of dropping in the future?
10:10 <@ardissone|away> that was never in question
10:11 <@ss|work> We'll probably never drop it.
10:11 <@delliott> Then why add in a new one?
10:11 <@delliott> Seems like overkill.
10:11  * ardissone|away who thought D was a good shortcut for bookmark
10:11 <@ss|work> *sigh*
10:11 <@ss|work> 10:09 <@froodian> the problem is that we need more bookmark-related 
                 keyboard shortcuts
10:11 <@ss|work> 10:10 <@froodian> but all modifiers concerned with D are taken
10:11  * froodian was just copy/pasting that
10:11 <@ss|work> :)
10:11  * ardissone|away was too
10:11 <@delliott> Grumble
10:11 <@ss|work> That looks like it, overall.
10:12 <@froodian> awesome
10:12 <@ss|work> We touched on the other bugs earlier.
10:12 <@peeja> phew.
10:12 <@froodian> thank you guys for sticking it out for my specific bug list :)
10:12 <@ardissone|away> mhm
10:12 <@ss|work> Next week our meeting is on Tuesday
10:12 <@ss|work> pinkerton: ^^
10:13 <@ss|work> Have a good week
10:13 <@ardissone|away> fix lots of bugs ;)
10:13 <@ss|work> And see most of you back here next week
10:13 <@ardissone|away> review lots of patches ;)
10:13 <@ss|work> Do lots of triage
10:13 <@ss|work> Find a new web host
10:13 <@ss|work> Oh wait, that's me.
10:13 <@froodian> eat lots of pie
10:13 <@delliott> Have beer
10:13 <@ardissone|away> finish the build instructions
10:13 <@delliott> ardissone|away: I've been taking screenshots while doing a fresh install.
10:14 <@delliott> Worthwhile?
10:14 <@Pinolo> just a little thing aboyut the topcrasher
10:14 <@ardissone|away> delliott: cool
10:14 <@ardissone|away> Pinolo: what's new?
10:14 <@Pinolo> I've been using the 180branch build and bloglines for a week and it looks 
10:14 <@ardissone|away> good :)
10:14 <@Pinolo> never a crash
10:14 <@froodian> sweet
10:14 <@ardissone|away> :D
10:14 <@ardissone|away> i'll poke meg in the bug and then wfm it