Status Meetings:2006-09-27:Log
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12:05 <@ss> Welcome everyone to another Camino meeting 12:05 <@kreeger> small meeting today 12:05 <@kreeger> - pink - mento 12:05 <@ss> Glad to see some of you made it for our first Wednesday version 12:05 <@delliott> +smorgan :) 12:05 <@ss> Note that we did this version for pink, but he's out of town. 12:05 <@ss> :) 12:05 <@ss> First up is 1.1a1 12:06 <@ss> Overally we're looking good. 12:06 <@ss> Overall even 12:06 <@ss> The focus before a1 needs to be on the pop-up blocker bugs and the regressions we've seen from autocomplete and RSS. 12:06 <@ss> Most of those regressions are now minor 12:06 <@ss> But they should still get looked at and fixed. 12:07 <@ss> Tenatively, we'd like to release on Oct 5 or 6 (PDT) 12:07 <@kreeger> we have a patch up on the pref loading issue 12:07 <@ss> Be sure to target that... :) 12:07 <@ss> But yeah, we're looking good, as I said. Most things have gotten fixed. 12:07 <@ss> The main issue now is the new pop-up blocker design. 12:07 <@ss> I believe that's for you kreeger 12:08 <@kreeger> oh ok 12:08 <@kreeger> what is the decision 12:08 <@ss> You had an r- 12:08 <@ss> No? 12:08 <@kreeger> yeah 12:08 <@kreeger> but we haven't decided on the design 12:08 <@ss> So... just fix that up. 12:08 <@ss> Don't worry about that part 12:08 <@kreeger> or what it should look like 12:08 <@ss> The graphics can be changed later. 12:09 <@ss> Focus on getting your patch ready 12:09 <@ss> We can swap graphics whenever. 12:09 <@ss> We just need to get our current design out and our new(er) design in. 12:10 <@kreeger> ok 12:10 <@ss> As far as 1.1final is concerned, there are only a couple major things left. 12:10 <@kreeger> i was under the impression that we haven't made a decision on what to do there 12:10 <@ss> kreeger: We have a decision to use a background image 12:10 <@ss> And new (x) icons 12:10 <@ss> That's what needs the coding. 12:10 <@kreeger> ok 12:10 <@ss> Beyond that, it can be changed later. 12:11 <@ss> The big 1.1 feature that's left is software update 12:11 <@ss> I'm hoping that will make beta so it can get some testing. 12:11 <@ss> But it's definitely not going to make a1, and that's fine. :) 12:11 <@ss> froodian is also working on the menu cleanup 12:11 <@ss> And is blocked by me. :) 12:11 <@ss> I'll need to remedy that today. 12:12 <@ss> There's 119 bugs targeted for 1.1 12:12 <@delliott> kreeger: Are you taking SUpdate? 12:12 <@ss> Which is down a bit, but not very many... 12:12 <@ss> That said, we've been pushing through a lot of bugs. 12:12 <@kreeger> delliott: yes 12:12 <@delliott> kreeger: Ok. 12:12 <@ss> And smfr has been doing good with the review queue. 12:13 <@ss> We haven't seen any major issues with 1.0.3 yet. 12:13 <@ss> Although, we don't have talkback reporting. 12:13 <@smorgan> Has anyone given anyone any data from the various bookmark logging additions? 12:13 <@ss> Smokey has been emailing Jay and he's promised to look at it today, before he goes on his honeymoon. :) 12:13 <@ss> I haven't heard of anything yet... 12:14 <@froodian> smorgan: wevah had it happen with "regular logging" but it didn't say much. just that by the time it tries to read it, it's already reading in a 0 byte file 12:15 <@ss> Oh! Forgot to mention. 12:15 <@ss> For 1.1a1, we're going to make a "beta.caminobrowser.org" website 12:15 <@ss> We're going to put a notice on it asking people not to submit it to any update sites 12:15 <@ss> Hopefully, they'll listen. 12:16 <@delliott> Hoepfully :) 12:16 <@ss> But the notice will be big 12:16 <@ss> And bad ass 12:16 <@ss> ;) 12:16 <@ss> Does anyone have anything else before we get into specific bugs? 12:17 <@ss> Going once? 12:17 <@ss> Going twice? 12:17 !sand.mozilla.org ss invited thebot into the channel. 12:17 -!- thebot has joined #camino-mtg 12:17 <@ss> bug 181806 12:17 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=181806 enh, P5, Camino2.0, sfraser_bugs@smfr.org, NEW, Add "Go" button to toolbar 12:17 <@ss> Jon was looking at that 12:17 <@ss> And getting ready to create a graphic for it 12:17 <@ss> But we need to first decide if we want it at all. 12:17 <@delliott> Will it displace anything? 12:18 <@ss> ? 12:18 <@delliott> From the current standard Toolbar setup. 12:18 <@ss> It could. 12:18 <@froodian> it wouldn't be standard 12:18 <@froodian> the potential problem is that it should be attached to the location bar 12:18 <@ss> It depends on how it's done. 12:18 <@ss> Right 12:18 <@ss> That's how Fx2 did it. 12:18 <@ss> They attached it to the location bar 12:18 -!- kreeger2 has joined #camino-mtg 12:18 <@froodian> but invisible for people who don't want it 12:18 <@ss> So _everyone_ got it. 12:19 <@froodian> i really think that if it's at all possible, then we should do it 12:19 <@froodian> but i don't know how 12:19 <@froodian> it's important for novice or young users imo 12:19 <@ss> Fx1.5 allowed the go button to be anywhere (fyi) 12:19 <@froodian> (ie, my little brother bugs me about it whenever i visit home) 12:19 <@ss> Ah... 12:19 <@ss> smorgan: Is that possible? 12:20 <@smorgan> I'd like to veto paste&go, in case anyone is considering that 12:20 <@ss> Requiring the go button be connected to the location bar when visible. 12:20 <@smorgan> Is what possible? 12:20 <@ss> But allowing it to not be visible 12:20 <@smorgan> Well, there's the Mail.app route 12:20 * ss knows not of this route 12:20 <@smorgan> As ghetto as I find that option 12:20 <@smorgan> You have two 12:20 * ss doesn't use Mail.app 12:20 < kreeger2> heh 12:20 <@ss> Oh 12:20 <@smorgan> location bar with go 12:20 <@smorgan> location bar without go 12:20 <@ss> Hm 12:21 <@delliott> That is ghetto. 12:21 <@ss> So there's no way to have a "go" button sitting in the customize sheet and, when dragging it onto the toolbar, require it connect to the location bar? 12:21 < kreeger2> not that i know of 12:21 <@murph> as for the user's choice to whether it's visible: would it be shown/hidden from the customize toolbar sheet, or a preference? 12:21 <@froodian> customize toolbar 12:21 < kreeger2> iis the stuck together toolbar item a 10.4 only thing? 12:21 <@froodian> says i 12:21 <@ss> Yeah, customize toolbar. 12:22 <@ss> We could make it a really light grey.... http://kmgerich.com/archive/images/pinstripe-2006-09.png 12:22 <@ss> ... 12:22 <@delliott> Since we are moving to 10.3.9 (evenually), we want to make it compatible. 12:22 <@ss> Or not available. 12:22 <@ss> We're already requiring 10.3 for 1.1 12:23 <@froodian> well, mail.app's way is kinda ghetto 12:23 <@froodian> but there is precedent 12:23 <@froodian> i'd support that 12:23 <@ss> I don't think I would... 12:24 <@froodian> i mean, another thing would be to add another split to the split view 12:24 <@froodian> but that's even nastier 12:24 <@ss> That's much nastier. 12:24 -!- kreeger2 is now known as kreeger2-afk 12:24 <@delliott> If it has to go in, shouldn't it have to be to the immediate right of the url bar? 12:24 <@ss> That's what we're saying. 12:24 <@froodian> delliott: right. that's the whole problem 12:25 <@delliott> Do you think people will complain loudly if they cannot remove it? 12:25 <@froodian> yes 12:25 <@ss> Oh yeah. 12:25 <@delliott> Which side of the 80/20 split are those people? 12:25 <@froodian> 95 12:25 <@smorgan> kreeger: there's no such thing as a stuck together toolbar item; there's just toolbar items that happen to contain three different behaviors. That's why I find Mail's toolbar so ghetto. 12:25 <@ss> Really? 12:26 < kreeger2-afk> oh 12:26 < kreeger2-afk> i see 12:26 -!- kreeger2-afk is now known as kreeger2 12:26 < kreeger2> i haven't ever looked into any of those 12:26 <@smorgan> If they had made toolbar items that could glue and unglue themselves, that would have been pretty cool, but they didn't 12:27 <@delliott> I cannot see regular users being vocal about a Go button at inside right of the url bar. 12:27 <@delliott> Nobody whines about the inside-left on the Google search bar. 12:27 <@ss> delliott: I can. 12:27 <@froodian> well, lots and lots of people would be pissed if it were there all the time 12:27 <@froodian> least of all, us 12:27 <@ss> I don't see it being 95%, but I don't think this is an 80/20 bug 12:28 <@ss> I think it'd be closer to 60/40 12:28 <@ss> Or even 50/50 12:28 <@ss> One of those crazy rare ones... 12:28 <@delliott> It feels like most people wouldn't notice. 12:28 <@ss> It wouldn't be inside the location bar. 12:28 <@delliott> We would because damn, we code it everyday. 12:28 <@smorgan> delliott: They would. Trust me. 12:28 <@ss> It *couldn't* be inside the location bar. 12:29 <@ss> That wouldn't work right given we have two potential icons there. 12:29 <@ss> It'd probably be to the right of it. 12:30 <@ss> Anyway, I'm all for wontfixing this bug. I can see the value, but I don't think we have a solution. 12:30 <@froodian> i just think it's important to have a mouse-only way to load webpages 12:30 <@smorgan> That's not what wontfix means 12:30 <@delliott> This should be a 'draft some screenshots' solution. 12:31 <@smorgan> wontfix means we have no desire to fix it 12:31 <@ss> If Apple were to add "sticky" toolbar items (for lack of a better word), we could do it. 12:31 <@froodian> delliott: it's not design, it's ui 12:31 <@froodian> that's the problem 12:31 <@ss> smorgan: Alright then... future. :) 12:31 <@smorgan> Yes 12:31 <@froodian> fffffffffffff 12:31 <@ss> I'll do the honors. 12:31 <@ss> bug 175336 12:31 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=175336 enh, --, Camino1.2, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Camino - Different finger icon for links that have a target 12:31 <@ss> Specifically: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=240134&action=view 12:31 <@ss> Jon gave a few new ideas for cursors there. 12:32 <@delliott> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=175336 12:32 <@delliott> Arse 12:32 <@ss> We should discuss them and give feedback. 12:32 <@smorgan> I don't really like any of them 12:32 <@delliott> http://kmgerich.com/archive/images/pinstripe-2006-09.png 12:32 <@ss> Typically, with Jon, it's good if only one of us gives feedback. 12:32 <@delliott> ARSE 12:32 <@delliott> I suck at IRC 12:32 <@ss> So we don't bombard him. 12:32 <@ss> smorgan: I don't think any of them convey it, personally 12:32 <@smorgan> 3 is closest in my opinion, but they look like Windows windows (or terminal, on the right) 12:33 <@froodian> i think it's important for it to be a mickey mouse hand 12:33 <@ss> iCab uses a "stack", iirc 12:33 <@froodian> mac users know that that == link 12:33 <@ss> I agree. 12:33 <@ss> It needs to be a mickey mouse hand. 12:33 <@smorgan> 1 is out, 2 is only useful if you know HTML, and I don't get 4 at all 12:34 <@ss> I kind of do. 12:34 <@froodian> what is 4 for? 12:34 -!- kreeger2 has quit 12:34 <@ss> "target 'up'" 12:34 <@froodian> opt-click? 12:34 <@ss> Or something along those lines. 12:34 <@delliott> This seems unnecessarily complex. 12:34 -!- kreeger is now known as kreeger-away 12:34 <@kreeger-away> have to run foro a bit 12:34 <@ss> So we can ask him for more 12:35 <@ss> But we should express what we want. 12:35 <@froodian> i said this last night, but i think downloads should be a down arrow 12:35 <@ss> That's totally another bug. :) 12:35 <@ss> But it would rule it out for this bug 12:35 <@froodian> is it? i don't understand waht these are for 12:35 <@smorgan> This is for new windows 12:35 <@froodian> all 16? 12:35 <@smorgan> Yes 12:35 <@delliott> How does this add value to Camino? 12:35 <@ss> Yes. 12:36 <@froodian> oh 12:36 <@delliott> I am totally confused. 12:36 <@froodian> i thought they were supposed to mean different things 12:36 <@froodian> sorry 12:36 <@smorgan> delliott: The same way the "Opens foo in new window" in Safari's status bar does 12:36 <@ss> (Which I believe we have a bug for, btw) 12:36 <@smorgan> Which is another option; do that and forget about the cursor 12:36 <@delliott> I'm all for the Status Bar notification. 12:36 <@ss> I think we have a bug for both. 12:37 <@smorgan> Yeah 12:37 <@delliott> Changes to the Hand are confusing. 12:37 <@froodian> people request it a lot 12:37 <@froodian> on feedback 12:37 <@smorgan> I wonder if a hand with the alias-arrow overlay would work 12:37 <@froodian> where lot = sometimes 12:37 <@smorgan> It overloads meaning, but... 12:37 <@delliott> froodian: If you have people wanting it, then fair enough :) 12:37 <@ss> Unfortunately, when we (optionally) kill the status bar, it'd be nice to have it on the cursor as well. 12:38 <@smorgan> It does imply something in a new place 12:38 <@ss> It's also more work to look down at that status bar than at the cursor. 12:38 <@ss> smorgan: I can see that working, but I still think a different kind of cursor would be nice. 12:38 <@ss> ala 3 but with improvements to convey it better. 12:38 <@froodian> well, i'd like to see a document icon version 12:38 <@froodian> just to see 12:39 <@froodian> is it taboo to put colors in pointers? 12:39 <@ss> No... 12:39 <@ss> Copy anyone? 12:39 <@froodian> i'd like to see 3 with traffic lights 12:39 <@ss> The green thing. 12:39 <@froodian> yeah 12:40 <@smorgan> If he's doing another round of mockups, I'd like to see one with the alias arrow 12:40 <@smorgan> At least then we'll know if it sucks ;) 12:40 <@ss> Alright. We have: 12:40 <@delliott> ;) 12:40 <@ss> 1) alias arrow 12:40 <@ss> 2) document version 12:40 <@ss> 3) #3 with traffic lights (define that better for me?) 12:40 <@ss> All of them using the hand. 12:41 <@froodian> the close/minimize/zoom widgets 12:41 <@ss> Right, but all of them at once? 12:41 <@ss> Oh! 12:41 <@ss> I you mean in the corner 12:41 <@froodian> yeah 12:41 <@froodian> so that it reads more as a window 12:41 <@ss> Wow, that'll be tough to convey. 12:41 <@ss> :) 12:41 <@froodian> very 12:41 <@ss> I have full confidence in Jon. 12:41 <@smorgan> Window could be tab, remember 12:41 <@ss> That's true... 12:42 <@delliott> Happy days to the person who has to code up figuring out where the link goes! Damn. 12:42 <@smorgan> That may not be terribly important for an icon though 12:42 <@ss> Alright, let's go with this and see what he comes up with. 12:42 <@ss> bug 303193 12:42 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=303193 enh, --, Camino1.1, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Make error pages look less like Windows and more like Camino/Aqua 12:42 <@ss> One of the issues Smokey conveyed was about the new "arrow" icons 12:43 <@ss> And how they mean other things throughout the OS X UI 12:43 <@ss> Specifically, they usually "go" places 12:43 <@ss> (Oh and this link: http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/clients/camino/ErrorPage/error.html ) 12:43 <@smorgan> I didn't like those 12:43 <@ss> Besides those, I think this design is better. 12:43 <@ss> Just have one big chunk of text? 12:43 <@ss> Or you mean kill the description? 12:44 <@smorgan> No, do what's there without bullet symbols 12:44 <@smorgan> The spacing already conveys logical groupings 12:44 <@ss> I think there'd need to be more spacing. 12:44 * ss pulls out Fx and DOMi 12:44 <@delliott> 1/2/3 ? 12:44 <@smorgan> Or just plain bullets; whatever 12:45 * delliott leaves 12:45 -!- delliott has left #camino-mtg 12:45 <@ss> Hm 12:46 <@ss> It doesn't look too bad that way 12:46 <@ss> I still think there'd need to be more spacing. 12:46 <@froodian> other than that, i think it's very nice 12:46 <@ss> But yeah, other than that it's great. 12:46 <@ss> Let's have him make that change and give us the CSS. 12:46 <@ss> We'll get feedback and, if desired, add bullets back later. 12:47 <@froodian> make it so 12:47 <@ss> That's really it for today 12:47 <@ss> A lot shorter meeting than last week... :) 12:47 <@ss> Next week Mike will be back 12:47 <@ss> And I'm sure we'll have lots to talk about pre-a1 12:47 <@ss> See everyone back here next week. :)