Status Meetings:2006-11-29:Log

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12:04 <@mento> status: tinderboxen are green
12:04 <@froodian> w00t
12:04 <@mento> thanks, stuart
12:04 <@smorgan> n/p
12:04 <@smorgan> That's for doing the part that was actually breaking things ;)
12:04 <@mento> ha
12:04  * froodian waits for pink
12:05 <@mento> can you fix Tp now too?
12:05 <@smorgan> I was pleased that I independently came up with exactly the fix you landed just 
                 about the time you landed it
12:05 <@mento> heh
12:05 <@mento> pinkerton's afk
12:05 <@froodian> ah, k
12:05 <@mento> running around without pants, as usual
12:05 <@froodian> heh
12:05 <@froodian> shall we begin then?
12:05 <@froodian> everybody open the url in the topic
12:05 <@froodian> please
12:06 <@froodian> this last week has been a bit slow
12:06 <@froodian> because of the US holiday
12:06 <@froodian> but pretty good considering
12:06 <@froodian> and because of cairo
12:07 <@froodian> which if you don't all know, is what mento and smorgan were just chatting about
12:07 <@cl> yeah, heh.
12:07 <@cl> everyone download a trunk build and experience the funness :)
12:07 <@smorgan> Scrubbing over selects is really fun
12:07 <@mento> are page transitions black now?  i only tried a cairo build through vnc.
12:07 <@smorgan> I highly recommend it
12:07 <@froodian> yeah, it's a bit funtastic atm :p
12:08 <@cl> scrubbing over any form widgets is fun
12:08 <@froodian> anyway, as far as Camino dev goes, we should get a hold on what we want for a2, 
                  and when we want it
12:09 <@froodian> there are currently 8 open bugs that are flagged 1.1a2?
12:10 <@froodian> many of which have partial or full patches
12:10 <@cl> kqueue has a patch
12:11 <@cl> spell-check has a sort-of patch that hwaara objects to
12:11 <@froodian> yeah.  personally, if it's in the imminent future, I think we should hold a2 
                  for kqueue
12:11 <@cl> and which smfr thinks can be done a better way
12:11 <@smorgan> Everyone objects to that patch (including me, and I wrote it)
12:11 <@froodian> heh
12:11 <@cl> I agree that kqueue needs to get into a1
12:11 <@cl> er, a2
12:12 <@smorgan> I plan to take another crack at that
12:12 <@froodian> mento: can we mark kqueue a2+ ?
12:12 <@mento> i haven't been following that.  what is it?
12:13 <@smorgan> Quicksilver + download to desktop = hang
12:13 <@mento> oh, *that*
12:13 <@froodian> ( )
12:13 <@mento> can we feasibly do it right by a2?
12:14 <@froodian> !summon kreeger
12:14 <@mento> if a2 is, say, before the end of the year?
12:14 <@froodian> heh
12:14 <@cl> "right" meaning ... ?
12:14 <@froodian> smorgan, do you have a feel for that?
12:14 <@froodian> having reviewed it?
12:14 <@mento> in a way that nobody objects to :)
12:15 <@smorgan> mento: the objecting is spellcheck, not kqueue
12:15 <@mento> go go gadget agenda
12:15 <@smorgan> Assuming kreeger has some time to put into it, kqueue will be fine.
12:15 <@mento> ok, so then it's just review comments that need addressing
12:15 <@mento> i vote for a2
12:15 <@smorgan> Right
12:15 <@froodian> cool
12:16 <@smorgan> spellcheck for a2 will have to see if I can come up with a cleaner fix
12:16 <@smorgan> Or if we decide to do something silly like land the hack just for a2
12:16 <@cl> the single-page bookmarking being broken is pretty ugly, if you ask me. that's 
            definitely a 1.1 blocker but whether or not it's an a2 blocker, I dunno.
12:17 <@froodian> well, "broken" is relative
12:17 <@froodian> but yeah
12:17 <@froodian> i intend to have it fixed before kqueue ;)
12:17 <@cl> did we ever decide on a "good" way to do it?
12:17 <@mento> ug-lee hack
12:17 <@smorgan> mento: spellcheck?  yeah
12:17 <@mento> smorgan: yup
12:18 <@smorgan> I just had spent hours getting no-where, and really wanted to see it work
12:18 <@froodian> on bookmarking, more or less.  i need to talk to smorgan about it in more depth 
                  at some point - unexpected stuff cropped up
12:18 <@froodian> but that's for another time
12:18 <@smorgan> So I said "well, what's one way I *know* will work..."
12:18 <@mento> yeah.  i think simon's probably on the right track.
12:18 <@smorgan> You can explain what he meant to me later
12:19 <@froodian> next?
12:19 <@cl> murph: where are you on the popup blocker stuff?
12:19 <@cl> we have three bugs under the general heading of "popup blocker"
12:19 <@cl> that are 1.1a2?
12:19 <@cl> one is the wrapping, which has a patch
12:20 <@murph> I've just incorporated smorgan's last review, and have an updated patch ready very 
12:20 <@froodian> tboxen and cairo:  we mentioned this already, suffice it to say that smorgan is 
                  a firefighting machine
12:20 <@froodian> other stuff in general notes is self-explanatory.  does anybody have anything 
                  else before we go into specific bugs?
12:20 <@murph> an issue with enforcing a minimum wrapping amount is what's holding me up..
12:21 -!- thebot has joined #camino-mtg
12:21 <@froodian> Bug 341967
12:21 < thebot> froodian: Bug nor, --, 
                Camino1.1,, ASSI, Popup blocker notification text doesn't 
                wrap properly
12:21 <@froodian> I'm not sure whether we should talk about this now, or a time when pink is here 
                  to + / -
12:21 <@froodian> thoughts?
12:21 <@cl> so we should have no problems getting that in a2, regardless, right?
12:21 <@froodian> errr, the thing we'd talk about would be the color
12:21 <@murph> yeah, definitely not
12:22 <@smorgan> Even without pink, we can at least talk about it
12:22 <@cl> we should at least get that off the ? list, then, and either it blocks a2 or doesn't. 
            I say it doesn't block a2 but should block 1.1.
12:22 <@smorgan> Am I alone/crazy?
12:23 <@cl> smorgan: no, I totally agree.
12:23 <@cl> Blue is too "nice"
12:23 <@froodian> about disliking the blue?
12:23 <@smorgan> Yes
12:23 <@froodian> no, you're not alone
12:23 <@froodian> i'm not sure about the old orange/yellow though
12:23 <@cl> it should be bright red.
12:23 <@froodian> the intermediate graphic we have now really grew on me
12:23 <@cl> and say, "DANGER, WILL RONBINSON!"
12:23 -!- pinkerton has joined #camino-mtg
12:23 <@smorgan> If we ever wanted a banner that said "This webite is totally awesome (Okay)", 
                 the blue would be perfect :)
12:23 <@pinkerton> sorry, eye appt
12:24 <@froodian> hi pink.  we're talking about color for the pop-up blocker
12:24 <@smorgan> pinkerton: you're just in time to re-re-re-visit the color ;)
12:24 <@froodian> ardissone says to say he likes the last iteration of the orange/yellow that we 
12:25 <@pinkerton> picture?
12:25  * pinkerton still likes black
12:25 <@froodian> but i really like what shipped in a1.  we could do that programmatically, right?
12:25 <@smorgan> Which I'd also be on board with, but I'm not married to it
12:25 <@smorgan> Or we do black
12:25 <@cl> black would be OK.
12:25 <@smorgan> But less rounded please?
12:25 <@cl> it is, after all, the new black.
12:25 <@froodian> a possible downside to black is that aqua buttons look a little out of place on 
12:25 <@froodian> pinkerton: sorry, don't have URLs to pics
12:26 <@froodian> or at least, i don't
12:26 <@pinkerton> i don't think they look that bad, really
12:26 <@cl> of what we've seen so far, my current favourite is what we shipped in a1
12:26 <@murph> I can change the gradient code to some different values and post some screens if 
               we really need something to visualize..
12:26 <@cl> with black being somewhere in the middle
12:26 <@cl> but blue being, well, bad.
12:27 <@froodian> murph: you could definitely do black programmatically so it could span multiple 
                  lines, right?
12:28 <@murph> yeah, right now there's a gradient being drawn that mixes two colors: start/end
12:30 <@murph> so, any simple shading will work with the current code by just changing the color 
12:30 <@froodian> right, but if we did it with the line down the center and not just as a 
                  straight gradient (though i agree w/ smorgan that a little less round could be 
12:30 <@froodian> like
12:30 <@froodian> that's doable too?
12:30 <@smorgan> There's no reason it shouldn't be
12:30 <@cl> for the record, I don't think the aqua controls look *that* weird.
12:30 <@cl> but I do think that "DO NOT ENTER" sign icon needs to go.
12:31 <@cl> don't we have a perfectly good OS X-style icon that we can use there already? :-p
12:32 <@cl> (or no icon at all, as in 
12:32 <@pinkerton> i don't mind that either
12:32 <@pinkerton> the icon helps catch your eye a little
12:32 <@pinkerton> but not too much
12:32 <@froodian> yeah, i like the icon
12:32 <@froodian> so it seems nobody really has too big a problem with black.  is that what we 
12:32 <@smorgan> murph: So can you code up a reasonable approximation of the current look in code?
12:32 -!- kreeger has joined #camino-mtg
12:33 <@smorgan> Seems like a good think to aim for
12:33 <@pinkerton> 8)
12:33 <@smorgan> And once it's code, it'll be easy to play with
12:33 <@smorgan> We could have a pref pane with three or four sliders
12:33 <@smorgan> Pick your own hue!
12:33 <@smorgan> :D
12:33 <@cl> ooh, sliders!
12:33 <@froodian> heh
12:34  * pinkerton shakes his head
12:34 <@murph> smorgan: yeah.. I can come up with something.
12:34 <@froodian> cool.  if nobody has any other business... ?
12:34 <@murph> you mean the black one we shipped with in a1 correct?
12:34 <@smorgan> Right
12:34 <@murph> k
12:34 <@cl> well, that takes care of the popup stuff, mostly :-p
12:35 <@cl> still leaves bug 343937
12:35 < thebot> cl: Bug nor, --, Camino1.1, 
      , NEW, Default "unblock popup" behavior should not include 
                adding site to Exceptions List
12:35 <@cl> which I'd be inclined to minus for a2 simply because no one is working on it any more
12:35 <@cl> I do think that UI needs to be a little more thought out before we ship 1.1, though.
12:35 <@smorgan> No-one can work on it without a UI decision
12:36 <@froodian> i like the track begun by comment 8
12:36 <@cl> Personally, I like your idea, Stuart.
12:37 <@cl> anyone *dislike* the idea in comment 8 there?
12:38 <@smorgan> pinkerton: Have you looked at it?
12:39 <@cl> while he's thinking about it, can we jump briefly to bug 353433 and minus it for b1, 
            since we think we've solved the current issue?
12:39 < thebot> cl: Bug nor, --, Camino1.1, 
      , ASSI, Preference window slow to open
12:39 <@pinkerton> let me look
12:40 <@smorgan> cl: Have we?  I have no confidence of that
12:40 <@smorgan> Someone who sees it needs to test
12:40 <@cl> well, if your latest patch didn't fix it, do we have even a remote idea of what else 
            might be the problem?
12:41 <@smorgan> Yes; finding feed:
12:41 <@smorgan> That's when it got slow
12:41 <@pinkerton> sorry, i'm not following that popup discussion
12:41 <@smorgan> Or we are doing extra work somewhere, maybe
12:41 <@smorgan> It was all refactored
12:41 <@smorgan> pinkerton: The issue is, can we handle both "show once" and "show and unblock" 
                 in a graceful way
12:42 <@smorgan> I was suggesting maybe cookie-like UI
12:42 <@smorgan> So you can show it, show it and unblock forever, close the bar, or close the bar 
                 and have it not show up for the site again
12:42 <@pinkerton> what does firefox do?
12:43 <@cl> sticks a "preferences" button in the bar
12:43 <@cl> next to the close widget.
12:43 <@cl> which, IMO, sucks, because you can't do anything except close the bar.
12:43 <@pinkerton> ew
12:43 <@smorgan> Eeew.  It's a button that acts like a popup
12:44 <@pinkerton> right
12:44 <@cl> good god, that's fugly.
12:44 <@pinkerton> is there a "common case" here?
12:44 <@pinkerton> like what 90% of people want?
12:44 <@pinkerton> my guess is they just want to unblock a single popup
12:44  * ardissone|away doesn't like the black FWIW :P
12:44 <@pinkerton> but then that hides the whitelist functionality deep in prefs
12:44 <@smorgan> pinkerton: Or block forever
12:44 <@smorgan> I'd see that as common
12:45 <@smorgan> If you go to a site a lot that has an advertizing popup, you don't want the bar 
                 every time
12:45 <@cl> like
12:45 <@ardissone|away> right
12:45 <@ardissone|away> that's annoying as all get out
12:45 <@pinkerton> does ff have ui for that
12:45 <@cl> I know CNN is going to keep showing it, and I want to be able to tell it to fack off 
            without going to too much trouble.
12:46 <@ardissone|away> pinkerton: only to make the bar show in the status bar instead
12:46 <@cl> well, firefox has "don't show this message [the popup blocker bar] when popups are 
            blocked" in the evil button menu
12:46 <@ardissone|away> god
12:46 <@cl> but that's not really particularly useful UI in this context :-p
12:46 <@pinkerton> let's stick with what we have now (only unblocks the current popup, not all, 
                   no blacklist all) and see what kind of feedback we get
12:47 <@pinkerton> we can argue around in a circle but i don't think we have enough data to know 
                   what's truely useful
12:47 <@pinkerton> yes, all those things would be great, but i don't think we can fit them all on 
                   the bar
12:47 <@froodian> what we have now isn't just only unblocks though
12:47 <@froodian> it's unblock and whitelist
12:47 <@pinkerton> oh
12:47 <@pinkerton> then lets stick with that, since it seem to work fine for me :D
12:47 <@cl> I think a cookie-style UI here with a "Remember" checkbox is a really good idea.
12:47 <@smorgan> pinkerton: We could add the checkbox at a slight height hit
12:48 <@pinkerton> checkboxes just add clutter
12:48 <@ardissone|away> yeah, people are complaining about show+whitelist being the only option
12:49 <@pinkerton> real users, or people like cl? :D
12:49 <@froodian> real users
12:49 <@froodian>
12:49 <@froodian> :p
12:49 <@froodian> ;)
12:49 <@smorgan> And we already have feedback that says they don't like seeing the bar all the 
                 time on various sites
12:49 <@smorgan> Which I see as a need for a blacklist
12:49 <@cl> people complained forever about how much the cookie dialog sucked until we mostly 
            fixed it
12:50 <@ardissone|away> i think we need to do what smorgan suggests
12:51 <@cl> and we haven't heard a thing since. I think paralleling that UI for popup blocking is 
12:51 <@ardissone|away> it's at worst an incremental improvement towards a complete, good solution
12:51 <@smorgan> The checkbox may well look really bizarre is the biggest issue
12:51 <@cl> It uses an analogy that people area already used to.
12:51 <@pinkerton> can we get some mockups? i'm just afraid it'll be really cluttered
12:52 <@froodian> ok, let's try to get mockups and talk about it next week
12:52 <@cl> sounds good
12:52 <@froodian> good meeting everybody, fix bugs! ;)
12:52 <@cl> wait one second
12:52 <@cl> that leaves bug 350733 :-p
12:52 < thebot> cl: Bug enh, --, ---, 
      , UNCO, Make cmd/shift modifiers work on items in the 
                back/forward button menus
12:52 <@froodian> let's talk about that next week
12:52 <@froodian> since it's not 1.1
12:52 <@froodian> and it's late
12:52 <@cl> grr
12:53 <@froodian> you shoulda wikiid it ;)
12:53 <@ardissone|away> i don't see it on the agenda :P
12:53 <@pinkerton> heh
12:54 <@cl> well, there's no reason it *shouldn't* be 1.1 if we decide to do it.
12:57 <@ardissone|away> well, let's discuss it next week
13:02 <@ardissone|away> good meeting everyone; go fix bugs :)
13:03 <@murph> have a good one guys.