Status Meetings:2006-12-20:Log

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[12:01pm] froodian: shall we begin?
[12:02pm] froodian: everybody point your browsers to
[12:02pm] • pinkerton goes to put a chimichanga in the microwave
[12:02pm] froodian: !clone chimichangas
[12:04pm] froodian: first order of business is next week.  Next wednesday is two days after some christian holiday or another, and three days before new years.  do we want to meet anyway, or...?
[12:04pm] • froodian stalls for the length of a chimichanga cooking
[12:04pm] froodian:
[12:04pm] pinkerton: i'm reading as i go
[12:05pm] pinkerton: i'll prolly be around
[12:05pm] murph: hehe.  I should be able to make it next week.
[12:05pm] smorgan: I'll be here too
[12:05pm] froodian: i'll be as likely to be around as i will any day for the next month
[12:05pm] froodian: so sounds like a yes?
[12:05pm] pinkerton: sure
[12:05pm] froodian: next: camino 1.1a2
[12:06pm] froodian: we postponed it last week, due to the bugs listed there
[12:06pm] froodian: but i think we might need to just pick a day and release on it come hell or high water
[12:07pm] froodian: and try to get as much of that list in before then
[12:07pm] smorgan: FWIW, I don't think password autofill should block it
[12:07pm] pinkerton: are there any new crashers or dataloss? if not, we should prolly just pick a day
[12:07pm] froodian: which really just leaves kqueue
[12:07pm] smorgan: I mean, I'm going to do it at some point, I promise.  But it's really not that big a deal
[12:07pm] pinkerton: if it's stable, go for it
[12:07pm] froodian: and sr on popup wrapping
[12:07pm] froodian: it's pretty stable
[12:08pm] pinkerton: popup wrapping is another nice to have, shouldn't block a2
[12:08pm] pinkerton: product is usable w/out it
[12:08pm] froodian: it's too bad about kqueue though, since it is a very high profile hang, and a major change to a large subsystem...
[12:08pm] smorgan: It's not that large a subsystem
[12:08pm] smorgan: I mean, nothing but download icons relies on it
[12:09pm] smorgan: brb
[12:09pm] froodian: wait, nothing but icons?
[12:09pm] froodian: doesn't this fix the qs hang?
[12:11pm] murph: i thought it did, but haven't been following it too closely
[12:11pm] froodian: i mean, i know it does.  but i thought it was the whole file notification system
[12:12pm] froodian: not just icons
[12:13pm] froodian: either way, it seems like we're agreed that we should pick a date for a2 and release.  so, date?
[12:14pm] mento: we're just bumping some strings around and promoting a nightly again, right?
[12:14pm] smorgan: back, sorry.  My point is that it doesn't have effects that ripple through the entire app
[12:15pm] mento: we don't need to do any docs for this or have a freeze
[12:16pm] ardissone|away: well, we'll have relnotes
[12:16pm] mento: do we have 'em yet?
[12:16pm] ardissone|away: and some text for beta.cb.o
[12:16pm] froodian: we have a wiki version
[12:16pm] ardissone|away: mento: more or less, based on what's landed
[12:16pm] mento: with possible text that must be stricken for things that don't make it 
[12:16pm] froodian: we'll need to polish
[12:17pm] mento: does a week sound like enough time?
[12:17pm] mento: anyone prefer not doing a release next week when half of the civilized world is on vacation?
[12:17pm] ardissone|away: we did b2 last year on the 29th
[12:17pm] froodian: we could have a christmas release 
[12:17pm] froodian: except that most of you prolly celebrate
[12:18pm] mento: sure, find someone else to spin it 
[12:18pm] froodian: i take it back, i take it back! 
[12:18pm] ardissone|away: so Fri after new years?
[12:18pm] ardissone|away: 5 Jan?
[12:18pm] pinkerton: ok
[12:18pm] pinkerton: note that after that i'll be in MV for 2weeks
[12:19pm] pinkerton: on the 11th i'm giving an open source talk at google on camino, open to the public
[12:19pm] • ardissone|away notes
[12:19pm] pinkerton: would be nice to have a recent release
[12:19pm] froodian: cool 
[12:19pm] pinkerton: would be better if we called it a beta LOL
[12:19pm] ardissone|away: too many bugs sitting in queues 
[12:20pm] pinkerton: fine
[12:20pm] ardissone|away: mostly the "i need a patch" quuee
[12:20pm] ardissone|away: people are really irritated about the spelling UI (or lack thereof)
[12:21pm] smorgan: I haven't had time to look at fixing the cursor issue again yet
[12:21pm] • froodian got yet another email about that this mornign
[12:21pm] ardissone|away: and that, too
[12:21pm] ardissone|away: !clone smorgan
[12:21pm] pinkerton: who gets irritated about free software?
[12:21pm] pinkerton: these people need lives
[12:21pm] ardissone|away is now known as ardissone|food.
[12:21pm] murph: UI such as "spell check this field", etc?
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: and language selection
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: er, dictionary selection
[12:22pm] froodian: and mostly the cursor
[12:22pm] froodian: needing to be in the word
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: and "learn"
[12:22pm] murph: ohh. right.
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: but the cursor is prolly #2
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: er #1
[12:22pm] froodian: k, next?
[12:22pm] froodian: 1.0.4
[12:22pm] smorgan: I'm still not sure if we can do learn
[12:23pm] ardissone|food: 1.0.4 is in good shape
[12:23pm] ardissone|food: since it's our (hopfully) last release there
[12:23pm] ardissone|food: i think the passwrod thing should block
[12:23pm] ardissone|food: so we don't leave 10.2 people so exposed
[12:24pm] ardissone|food: everything else that doesn't need minbranching has landed
[12:24pm] smorgan: Do I need to do the KS backport?
[12:24pm] ardissone|food: if someone has some free time, a 1.8.0 version of the KS patch would be nice, and I'll make sure it builds
[12:24pm] smorgan: I forget
[12:25pm] ardissone|food: yeah, unless you can find someone else  (see above)
[12:25pm] smorgan: How conflicty is it?
[12:25pm] ardissone|food: a good number of hunks, iirc
[12:25pm] smorgan: I would guess it's mostly not having the prefs changes
[12:25pm] smorgan: I'll have my clone look into it at some point
[12:26pm] ardissone|food: i'll apply again and give you a report
[12:27pm] ardissone|food: it'd be nice to have a date, but since we can't read smorgan's mind or schedule his time.... 
[12:27pm] froodian: the wiki asks "When?" do we want to try to set a date, or...
[12:27pm] froodian: nm
[12:27pm] froodian:
[12:27pm] smorgan: I'm going to be semi-out from Thurs to Tues.  I'll either have no time, or more time
[12:27pm] smorgan: I have no idea which at this point
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: heh
[12:28pm] pinkerton: heh
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: we should chat at some point about the text of that relnote, and then we can give the notes to l10n early
[12:28pm] pinkerton: i say 1.1a2 is higher priority than 104
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: i agree
[12:28pm] pinkerton: so let's focus on that and push 104 after a2
[12:28pm] • froodian nods
[12:28pm] smorgan: k
[12:28pm] • ardissone|food grrs at security fire drills 
[12:30pm] ardissone|food: do we get to keep bm-xserve10?
[12:31pm] ardissone|food: (by keep i mean continue to share it with SeaMonkey)
[12:31pm] froodian: mento, do you know?
[12:31pm] ardissone|food: mento is listed as the admin 
[12:34pm] murph: this is off subject, but will a2 exhibit all of the cairo-related rendering issues?
[12:34pm] ardissone|food: no'
[12:34pm] froodian: a2 will be off the 1.8 branch
[12:34pm] froodian: so no
[12:34pm] ardissone|food: a2 is branch
[12:34pm] froodian: well, let's move on
[12:34pm] froodian: the bookmark loss note is basically just bug 364024.  Personally, I'm not sure it really requires discussion, just fixing. 
[12:35pm] pinkerton: ok
[12:35pm] smorgan: If someone not me could do it, that would be great
[12:35pm] ardissone|food: ?
[12:35pm] smorgan: It's just throwing up a dialog box in the recovery code path
[12:36pm] froodian: ardissone|food: I ? your ?
[12:36pm] froodian: it's possible i can do it
[12:36pm] froodian: we'll see how my time/home situation is
[12:36pm] ardissone|food: yes, but that bug is not the same as the issue i raised 
[12:36pm] froodian: oh really?  sorry
[12:36pm] froodian: what is it then?
[12:36pm] ardissone|food: "When bookmarks backup exists and bookmarks.plist does not, restore from backup instead of using default set"
[12:37pm] ardissone|food: which is totally irrelevant to getting more data 
[12:37pm] ardissone|food: i can file a followup for the more data
[12:37pm] smorgan: Oh, I just trusted that we were talking about ardissone's issue 
[12:37pm] ardissone|food: s/can/will/
[12:37pm] smorgan: Which is just a dialog box in the recovery
[12:37pm] froodian: but wouldn't restoring from the backup include saying that that's what you were doing?
[12:38pm] smorgan: Wait, why do we want to fix 364024?
[12:38pm] froodian: because we assume the user wants their own (slightly dated) data more than our data
[12:38pm] smorgan: How can that happen other than them manually throwing it away?
[12:38pm] ardissone|food: right
[12:39pm] smorgan: In which case they presumably don't want them?
[12:39pm] froodian: if the bookmarks plist becomes corrupted
[12:39pm] froodian: there's this whole bug
[12:39pm] froodian: lots of people losing data...
[12:39pm] froodian:
[12:39pm] ardissone|food: no, this is about the file being missing entgirely
[12:39pm] froodian: oh, it is?
[12:39pm] ardissone|food: not corruption
[12:39pm] froodian: sorry, i'm off my game today 
[12:39pm] smorgan: sigh
[12:39pm] • ardissone|food hands froodian coffee
[12:39pm] smorgan: Corruption: we need a dialog box
[12:39pm] smorgan: Missing: I'm not sure we should restore
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: i'm ok with WF, I guess; it just seemed odd when i was doing some testing
[12:40pm] smorgan: If there's a case other than deliberate user action, sure
[12:41pm] smorgan: But if not, it seems like we're undoing something they wanted to do
[12:41pm] smorgan: I don't really care either way I guess, it just seems odd
[12:41pm] ardissone|food: i had something in mind when i filed, but i can't recall now
[12:42pm] smorgan: I guess we might as well in case of extra-malicious bookmark gnomes
[12:42pm] ardissone|food: it's not even a 1.1 bug, so let's move on 
[12:42pm] froodian: queues are a bit better
[12:43pm] froodian: we need people to get on the important 1.1 bugs
[12:43pm] pinkerton: if you give me an urgent priority list, i can do them in that order
[12:44pm] froodian:
[12:44pm] pinkerton: prioritizing helps cuz i don't have a lot of time
[12:44pm] ardissone|food: in your q, only pop-up wrapping
[12:44pm] froodian: let's compile one in order of importance later?
[12:44pm] pinkerton: that's fine, just saying
[12:44pm] ardissone|food: sure
[12:44pm] ardissone|food: also, we plan to string freeze for l10n at beta, so any UI/nib/string-changing bugs need to land by then, just FYI
[12:45pm] pinkerton: k
[12:45pm] froodian: ok, anybody have anything else before we move on to specific bugs?
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: been trying to flag then b1
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: but if you have/see one that's not been flagged, please do
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: i'm done
[12:46pm] froodian: ok, specific bugs.  we're running a bit long today, so let's only discuss the 1.1 bugs, and move the others to next week?
[12:46pm] froodian invited thebot into the channel.
[12:46pm] thebot joined the chat room.
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: mhm
[12:46pm] froodian: bug 343937
[12:46pm] thebot: froodian: Bug nor, --, Camino1.1,, NEW, Default "unblock popup" behavior should not include adding site to Exceptions List
[12:47pm] froodian: there's a UI mockup which we should discuss
[12:47pm] smorgan: It doesn't work
[12:47pm] smorgan: Unless we aren't talking about mine
[12:47pm] froodian: we are
[12:47pm] froodian: i don't agree with you though 
[12:47pm] smorgan: Yeah, it doesn't work
[12:47pm] froodian: why doesn't it work?
[12:47pm] ardissone|food: how do we know that?
[12:47pm] smorgan: Because I asked people what it did
[12:47pm] smorgan: They couldn't tell me
[12:47pm] pinkerton: smorgan: you could ask cole and see if he has suggestions
[12:47pm] smorgan: "Always" is vague
[12:48pm] froodian: mmm, that's a pretty good indicator
[12:48pm] smorgan: Yeah, cole was the first to shoot it down
[12:48pm] smorgan: I tried some stuff he suggested
[12:48pm] pinkerton: but did he have any better ideas?
[12:48pm] smorgan: It also didn't really work
[12:48pm] smorgan: Things involving a popup menu
[12:48pm] ardissone|food: heh
[12:48pm] smorgan: But with a popup menu you have to have a button, and I couldn't find a way to tie them together
[12:49pm] smorgan: I'll try to brainstorm with him more
[12:49pm] ardissone|food: what about s/awlays/remember/ ?
[12:49pm] pinkerton: the save dialog does have those buttons with dropdown indicators for PDF saving
[12:49pm] pinkerton: maybe we could re-use that model somehow
[12:49pm] ardissone|food: "Remember my choice"
[12:49pm] pinkerton: it's skanky, but still better than what FF does
[12:49pm] ardissone|food: eww 
[12:49pm] smorgan: Isn't that exactly what FF does?
[12:50pm] ardissone|food: yes, but their menu is xul 
[12:50pm] pinkerton: sorry, print dialog
[12:50pm] ardissone|food: also, does that exist on 10.3?
[12:50pm] pinkerton: not sure
[12:50pm] ardissone|food: it's not in the print d. here
[12:50pm] ardissone|food: only in 10.4
[12:50pm] pinkerton: ah
[12:50pm] froodian: i'm not sure it exists on 10.4 either, isn't it an applecustomroll?
[12:51pm] smorgan: It's a desecration of all that is holy
[12:51pm] smorgan: Let's please not use it
[12:51pm] • froodian agrees
[12:51pm] ardissone|food: (it was a dumb ui decision to accomodate adding revenue-gen buttons)
[12:51pm] ardissone|food: mhm
[12:51pm] pinkerton: just a thought
[12:51pm] smorgan: Maybe Santa will bring someone inspiration
[12:51pm] froodian: heh
[12:51pm] pinkerton: ok well we need more ideas then but we're not going to come up with them here
[12:51pm] froodian: k, we'll revisit this later
[12:51pm] froodian: next: bug 346803
[12:51pm] froodian: murph?
[12:52pm] thebot: froodian: Bug maj, --, Camino1.1,, NEW, Make the pop-up bar accessible
[12:52pm] ardissone|food: think hard, everyione
[12:52pm] smorgan: If this is just implementation details we probably don't need to discuss at the meeting
[12:52pm] murph: I'll be able to add the popup buttons into the tab chain after the toolbar/bookmark views…
[12:53pm] murph: a way to reverse back up to them is beneficial to that, however.
[12:53pm] murph: yeah.  that's fine, just wanted to bring attention to it.
[12:53pm] froodian: k, it'll get discussed in #camino 
[12:53pm] froodian: ok, do we have time for a couple non-1.1 bugs that have patches awaiting decisions?
[12:54pm] froodian: bug 363633 and/or bug 364198
[12:54pm] thebot: froodian: Bug nor, --, ---,, NEW, Use file proxy in window titlebar when viewing local files (cmd-click to show path)
[12:54pm] thebot: froodian: Bug enh, --, ---,, NEW, Allow the favicon (site icon) to act as a proxy for local files
[12:54pm] froodian: after thinking about it, i think i agree that the icon shouldn't show up/disappear in the title bar
[12:55pm] froodian: but i do think that the favicon for files should act as a file proxy
[12:55pm] ardissone|food: froodian also thinks that will fix the Dock drag hang bug
[12:55pm] smorgan: I like the second, I think.  If it acts as a bookmark inside Camino but a file proxy outside, that seems like it would probably do what users expect.
[12:56pm] ardissone|food: it's passed the smorgan test 
[12:56pm] ardissone|food: at least provisionally 
[12:57pm] froodian: pinkerton, are you caring about this?
[12:57pm] • smorgan wonders when he became the project curmudgeon
[12:57pm] froodian: well, just 'cause you were the one to say "no" to the first one... 
[12:57pm] froodian: (or rather, the one to say "no" first)
[12:57pm] pinkerton: i wonder if they change in behavior would be confusing and inconsistent
[12:58pm] pinkerton: sometimes it's a bookmark, sometimes it can move a file to the trash
[12:58pm] ardissone|food: right now it does nothing, or hangs the dock, iirc
[12:58pm] ardissone|food: ah
[12:58pm] pinkerton: and what about dragging bookmarks of files. are those proxies?
[12:58pm] pinkerton: i think you're opening yourself to a world of hurt
[12:58pm] smorgan: From a user perspective isn't it just always a file?
[12:59pm] smorgan: Internally we make it a bookmark because that's how we interact with files
[12:59pm] pinkerton: until it's a bookmark of a file
[12:59pm] smorgan: But does that really mean anything to a user?  I think it's still just the file to them
[12:59pm] pinkerton: deleting a bookmark doesn't delete the file, but dragging the bookmark to the trash would?
[12:59pm] ardissone|food: default behavior is alias, tho, right?
[12:59pm] thebot: New build added to MozillaTest: firefox-pybuild linux2 (status: Success).
[12:59pm] pinkerton: what about renaming the bookmark? does that rename the file?
[1:00pm] pinkerton: see, there's a big disconnect
[1:00pm] smorgan: Yeah...
[1:00pm] ardissone|food: bookmakr ≠ site icon in the location bar
[1:00pm] smorgan: But there is a bigger one now
[1:00pm] smorgan: If I drag this around in Camino, it opens the file
[1:00pm] smorgan: If I drag it other places, it doesn't
[1:01pm] smorgan: I just want my file to open in text edit!  Why does it hate me!
[1:01pm] ardissone|food: (and hang my Dock!)
[1:01pm] pinkerton: do you expect to be able to drag a bookmark of a local file to textedit?
[1:01pm] froodian: users have demonstrated that they do
[1:01pm] froodian: we get feedback about it occasionally
[1:02pm] froodian: and there's the hang bug
[1:02pm] froodian: which wouldn't exist if nobody tried it
[1:02pm] ardissone|food: bookmark, or site icon?
[1:02pm] pinkerton: the assertion ws made that users think the two are the same
[1:02pm] froodian: well, right now it's either.  but it doesn't have to be
[1:02pm] ardissone|food: wrt the site icon, you can see the url is local, and I'd expect to be able to do stuff with that
[1:03pm] pinkerton: user's don't understand urls
[1:03pm] ardissone|food: not so much with a bookmark, which is completely internal to Camino
[1:03pm] ardissone|food: heh
[1:03pm] froodian: yeah, the fact that it's a real icon gives UI-indication for it being a file proxy
[1:04pm] ardissone|food: do we get that in the bm abr?
[1:04pm] • ardissone|food hasn't tried
[1:04pm] froodian: yes
[1:04pm] ardissone|food: ah
[1:04pm] froodian: i just tried the trash thing
[1:04pm] froodian: it copies the file to the trash
[1:05pm] pinkerton: heh
[1:05pm] pinkerton: well that's useful!
[1:05pm] froodian: very! 
[1:05pm] froodian: i mean, it deletes the bookmark too
[1:05pm] ardissone|food: that's what preview does, iirc
[1:05pm] froodian: which i would assume is expected
[1:05pm] ardissone|food: (copies or aliases, instead of removing the orig)
[1:06pm] ardissone|food: (not to say preview is the gold std)
[1:06pm] smorgan: I guess I feel like the actions that may behave less well under the make-it-a-proxy model are less common than the actions that currently don't work and we know confuse/annoy people.
[1:07pm] pinkerton: but once they bookmarked the file these expectations would go away?
[1:07pm] smorgan: Why can't bookmarks work?
[1:07pm] froodian: they can work.  I would have to respin to break them. 
[1:07pm] pinkerton: because they break the abstraction
[1:08pm] pinkerton: anything you do to a bookmark is NOT done to the actual file
[1:08pm] pinkerton: besides (maybe) opening it
[1:08pm] smorgan: What is there besides rename?
[1:08pm] pinkerton: delete
[1:08pm] pinkerton: i select a bookmarked file, hit backspace. bookmark gone. is the file?
[1:08pm] smorgan: Deleting bookmarks to sites doesn't delete the site
[1:09pm] smorgan: So I think that's not really a disconnect
[1:09pm] pinkerton: but dragging them to text edit or to the finder doesn't move them around the internet either
[1:09pm] froodian: well, it doesn't move the file either
[1:09pm] froodian: it just creates an alias
[1:09pm] froodian: or copies if you have option down
[1:09pm] pinkerton: hmm
[1:09pm] pinkerton: ok
[1:10pm] • pinkerton shrugs. seems ok
[1:10pm] thebot: New build added to MozillaTest: firefox-pybuild win32 (status: Burning).
[1:10pm] froodian: cool 
[1:10pm] froodian: almost done.  bug 362655
[1:10pm] thebot: froodian: Bug nor, --, ---,, UNCO, Make "Keyboard Shortcuts" menu item pointing to online documentation
[1:10pm] froodian: do we want it?
[1:10pm] froodian: yes/no
[1:10pm] • smorgan has to head out
[1:11pm] • smorgan has no real opinion here
[1:11pm] pinkerton: i dunno, didn't we have a huge push to reduce the help menu to 3 items?
[1:11pm] pinkerton: now we're goign to add more back?
[1:11pm] froodian: we had a huge push to reduce to 4
[1:11pm] smorgan left the chat room. (Quit: smorgan)
[1:11pm] pinkerton: i see 3
[1:11pm] froodian: and then we moved feedback later
[1:11pm] pinkerton: ah
[1:11pm] pinkerton: so why is this different than before?
[1:11pm] ardissone|food: i still thought relnotes should be there  
[1:11pm] froodian: well, we moved feedback because it's misleading to have it in help
[1:12pm] froodian: not because help was too cluttered
[1:12pm] pinkerton: right, so why isn't this the slippery slope to moving them all back in like before?
[1:12pm] froodian: it might be
[1:12pm] pinkerton: s/moving/adding
[1:12pm] pinkerton: seems like this would be wontfix, per that bug
[1:12pm] froodian: we should probably get rid of a separator then
[1:12pm] pinkerton: regardless of if it's a good idea, unless we're saying the other bug was a bad idea, in which case, why did we do it?
[1:12pm] froodian: seems silly to have 3 menu items, each in their own section 
[1:13pm] • froodian wasn't here for the other bug
[1:13pm] mento: i don't even think i have access to bm-xserve10
[1:13pm] froodian: was it "make the help menu as small as possible" or "get the help menu down to 4 items" ?
[1:13pm] mento: coop probably just copied the tinder-config
[1:13pm] ardissone|food: lol
[1:14pm] froodian: well, i'm not married to it
[1:14pm] froodian: it just seemed like a good idea
[1:14pm] pinkerton: someone who argued for making the help menu to 4 items has to still be involved with the project
[1:15pm] • froodian suspects it was mostly smfr
[1:15pm] pinkerton: i thought it was much more recent than that
[1:15pm] • ardissone|food cna't dingf the bug
[1:15pm] froodian: certainly not in the last year
[1:17pm] pinkerton: i dunno, i gotta run too
[1:17pm] froodian: me too
[1:17pm] froodian: ok, let's leave it up in the air and revisit
[1:17pm] froodian: good meeting folks, sorry it ran so long
[1:17pm] ardissone|food: have happy holidays everyone
[1:17pm] froodian: have a great holiday, those of you celebrating
[1:18pm] froodian: motion to adjourn?
[1:18pm] ardissone|food: froodian: see you at the end of Jan 
[1:18pm] froodian: second?
[1:18pm] froodian: all in favor aye?
[1:18pm] froodian: opposed nay?
[1:18pm] froodian: adjourned