Status Meetings:2007-03-21:Log

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12:02 <@froodian> is our semblance assembled?
12:02 -!- ardissone|away is now known as ardissone|food
12:02 <@froodian> let's begin then, shall we?
12:02 <@ardissone|food> smorgan's prolly in traffic
12:02 <@froodian> mhm
12:03 <@peeja> is our whole dissembly appeared?
12:03 <@pinkerton> yeah he's not online at work either
12:03 <@froodian> well, we can give him a couple minutes, if nobody's in a rush
12:04 <@ardissone|food> we "should" be shprt topday
12:04 <@peeja> ?
12:05 <@froodian> -> the meeting should be short today
12:05 <@peeja> ah.
12:05 <@froodian> (translated from ardissone food-speak)
12:08 -!- kreeger has joined #camino-mtg
12:10 <@froodian> alright, let's get started
12:10 <@froodian> everybody browse to 
12:10 <@ardissone|food> heh, just when i quit to update to today :p
12:11 <@froodian> it seems l10n is still having some issues
12:11 <@froodian> possibly a nibtool bug?
12:11 <@ardissone|food> pinolo, is that your read of it?
12:11 <@ardissone|food> that's what it seems to me
12:12 <@Pinolo> yes, ardissone, I read it but I couldn't  test on 1.1 yet
12:13 <@ardissone|food> there haven't been reports other than stefano and wrc_fan, so i'm hoping 
                        it's not wide-spread
12:14 <@ardissone|food> i'll try to remember to bug sam to check on his new MBP....
12:15 <@Pinolo> one thing that isn't clear to me...
12:15 -!- smorgan has joined #camino-mtg
12:15 <@Pinolo> after they installed the CaminoPalette framework, the problem was limited to 
                warning appearing  in console?
12:16 <@ardissone|food> both claimed to have the Palette installed to begin with, but the nature of 
                        the error is not really clear to me, either
12:16 <@Pinolo> yes, there wer 2 probs: 1 related to the palette not being installed
12:17 <@ardissone|food> which is why i'll try to have sam reproduce for me
12:17 <@Pinolo> #1 blocked AppleGlot
12:17 <@Pinolo> from what I understand, prob #2 isn't blocking
12:18 <@ardissone|food> it just requires vigilance to ensure all strings show up
12:18 <@Pinolo> yes
12:19 <@Pinolo> I'l try to investigate better this week asking Stefano and wrc again
12:19 <@Pinolo> and I'll let you know
12:19 <@froodian> great, and this can be continued when sam's around too
12:19 <@froodian> next:
12:19 <@froodian> review queues are pretty slow atm, but most of the slowdown is in dev.  It's 
                  pretty much just "hard bugs" left, and some of them aren't even assigned to 
                  anyone, so devly types should be sure to take a look
12:19 <@froodian> (this is for 1.1, btw)
12:19 <@ss> Yeah, I can check it later.
12:19 <@ss> I have time today.
12:21 <@ss> And the last thing in that list is... I'm at MoCo.
12:21 <@pinkerton> yay!
12:21 <@ss> So if anyone wants to do lunch or dinner and is in the area, let me know. ;)
12:21 <@froodian> congrats :D
12:21 <@ardissone|food> in other words, he's bored already ;)
12:21 <@ss> Anything else before specific bugs?
12:21 <@pinkerton> i'm looking at the keychain sr right now
12:21 <@ss> Sweet
12:21 <@ardissone|food> sweet
12:22 <@ss> pink has a little bit of time again!
12:22 <@pinkerton> and i'll be in MV for the next 2.5 weeks, and i'll either be swamped and 
                   miserable, or bored
12:22 <@pinkerton> i get on a plane tonight
12:22 <@ss> Awesome. Let me know, we'll do dinner.
12:22 <@pinkerton> so we'll see ;)
12:22 <@pinkerton> sounds good to me!
12:22 <@ss> (Also, keep the 29th or 30th open.)
12:22 <@pinkerton> but bear with me, my schedule in cali is always very last-minute
12:22 <@ss> Evening, I mean.
12:23 <@ss> Specific bugs?
12:23 ! ss invited thebot into the channel.
12:23 -!- thebot has joined #camino-mtg
12:23 <@ss> bug 372763
12:23 < thebot> ss: Bug nor, --, ---, 
      , UNCO, Links opened via apple events should always be loaded
12:23 <@ss> I guess we might want to wait for smorgan before discussing this.
12:23 <@froodian> he's here
12:23 <@ss> Oh, I missed that.
12:23  * froodian waves at smorgan 
12:23 <@ss> Hi smorgan. :)
12:23 <@smorgan> hello
12:24 <@ss> So the basis of that bug is that it added in some changes that might not be desired.
12:24 <@ss> The summary's actually pretty good, but comment 0 gives a better description.
12:26 <@pinkerton> i say that showing stale data is preferable to forced reload, which could cause 
                   data to be lost
12:26 <@ss> I think both suck, personally.
12:26 <@pinkerton> and let the user reload on their own
12:26 <@ardissone|food> stale data causes WT#@#@$ all the time
12:26 <@pinkerton> so let's keep it as-is
12:26 <@peeja> what's wrong with a new tab?
12:26 <@froodian> well, how does the user know it's stale?
12:26 <@ss> But refresh is better if we could tell that there was form data to lose
12:26 <@froodian> the data could be arbitrarily old
12:26 <@froodian> months
12:26 <@ss> (Something that will be part of Gecko 1.9, I believe.
12:26 <@ss> )
12:27 <@froodian> assuming they have a decent connection, they have no way of knowing that they're 
                  not seeing new data
12:27 <@froodian> if it were obvious, i'd say let them reload
12:27 <@froodian> but it's not
12:27 <@pinkerton> so let's defer reloading until trunk where we can tell this info
12:27 <@ss> But until then we leave it as is?
12:27 <@froodian> why not defer tab-focusing until trunk instead?
12:27 <@froodian> there was no data-loss in that situation
12:27 <@ss> Yeah, that's what I would say.
12:28 <@smorgan> I don't see how form data would be enough; it could be an ajax page
12:28 <@smorgan> So trunk isn't going to make the disagreement go away
12:28 <@pinkerton> ah ok
12:28 <@froodian> so maybe we should load links when people click on them
12:28 <@froodian> in a new window/tab
12:28 <@peeja> that's what I'd expect
12:28 <@froodian> if you command-click on a link in-app, would you focus old data?
12:29 -!- murph has joined #camino-mtg
12:29 <@froodian> the only info the user has to know what'll happen is the knowledge of what tabs 
                  are already open (in background or minimized windows, even)
12:29 <@froodian> we're making them keep track of that data
12:29 <@froodian> in order to get fresh info
12:29 <@smorgan> I disagree with that assertion
12:30 <@froodian> what about it?
12:30 <@smorgan> Unless the tab in question is the last tab in the frontmost window, it's not true
12:30 <@froodian> which it might very well be
12:30 <@froodian> also, then you're making the user notice that the leftmost tab isn't focused
12:31 <@froodian> last time i checked, we were aiming for a userbase that didn't need to notice any 
                  time that happened
12:31 <@froodian> s/didn't/shouldn't/
12:32 <@smorgan> All three behaviors suck, and I find the current behavior to suck least
12:32 <@ss> Heh, and that's what it comes down to. I'd say it sucks more.
12:32 <@pinkerton> i've seen amorette with like 20 windows open, all stacked behind each other, all 
                   showing the same url
12:33 <@pinkerton> because she doesn't know that she already had something open and another got 
                   opened in its place
12:33 <@ardissone|food> having to always think when you "load" a page to then reload for current 
                        seems un-userfriendly
12:33 <@pinkerton> it's really easy to get into this state on, say, an ibook with a small screen
12:33 <@froodian> well this way she'd only have the url open once
12:33 <@froodian> but it'd be wrong
12:33 <@smorgan> Assuming that all pages change all the time
12:33 <@ardissone|food> normal users can handle closing excess windows
12:33 <@froodian> pages DO change all the time!
12:33 <@froodian> the internet is dynamic!
12:33 <@smorgan> And that none make it clear when they are changed
12:34 <@froodian> and often, they don't make it clear
12:34 <@ardissone|food> but they're not going to be abel to handle "should i look to see if it 
12:34 <@froodian> online schedules change
12:34 <@peeja> i often want to keep a stale version around and look at the current version in 
               another tab
12:34 <@pinkerton> peeja: there are many ways to do that besides this
12:34 <@pinkerton> don't pollute the issue
12:34 <@froodian> and most webpages don't have big red text saying "we've updated this page in the 
                  last 5 days"
12:35 <@froodian> they just update
12:35 <@peeja> ok, what I should say is that I would expect to be able to do that by clicking links 
               from, say NNW
12:35 <@smorgan> peeja: you ca
12:35 <@smorgan> n
12:35 <@ss> Right now it just keeps the stale one open.
12:36 <@ss> No refresh, just focusing.
12:36 <@smorgan> It opens the page you had, then you deliberately open a new copy
12:36 <@peeja> sure, but then it looks like the stale copy *is* the new one
12:36 <@peeja> unless there's a date on the page, or I happen to know what camino does atm
12:36 <@pinkerton> let me ask this as an aside...
12:37 <@smorgan> Can we please not talk about weird use cases like wanting to use NNW to open old 
                 and new copies of pages at the same time? As pink said, that's easy to do other 
12:37 <@pinkerton> besides the people who were against this from the start, have we received any 
                   user feedback (either way) about it?
12:37 <@froodian> pinkerton: you say that you've seen amorette open the same url many times, 
                  because she forgot she had it open.  from that we can conclude that users forget 
                  which pages they have open.  we know that pages can and do change without 
                  warning, because the internet is dynamic.  so our solution is to not give them 
                  new data?
12:37 <@froodian> we've gotten zero positive feedback or requests, ever
12:38 <@pinkerton> for that i'm leaning towards reloading, but the slight data-loss chance worries 
                   me a bit
12:38 <@froodian> but i don't think that people will notice in the negative case
12:38 <@froodian> they'll just see a wrong webpage
12:38 <@pinkerton> though safari already has the data-loss issue, and i'm not sure how many people 
12:38 <@froodian> and won't know why
12:38 <@ss> What does Safari 3 do?
12:38 <@ss> Did it change this behavior at all?
12:39 <@pinkerton> can't easily check
12:39 <@smorgan> lemme see
12:39 <@pinkerton> personally i think minimizing the # of windows/tabs the user has open is a win
12:39 <@ss> No, it didn't.
12:39 <@ss> The behavior is the same on Leopard with Safari 3
12:39 <@pinkerton> because they get overwelmed by them
12:40 <@pinkerton> so obviously they're not getting much complaint about it
12:40 <@pinkerton> or they're ignoring it ;)
12:40 <@smorgan> same
12:40 <@ss> Heh
12:40 <@ss> One of the two.
12:40 <@froodian> heh
12:40 <@ardissone|food> (for the record, i wasn't originally opposed to this behavior, but it 
                        bothers me now)
12:41 <@smorgan> How are the people who hate this opening things, btw?
12:41 <@froodian> links from, mostly
12:41 <@pinkerton> i'm tempted to go with reloading, and see what kind of feedback we get
12:41 <@froodian> quicksilver too
12:41 <@ss> Yeah, links from Thunderbird, etc.
12:41 <@ss> And from IRC.
12:41 <@smorgan> Weird; every time I open a link from Mail or IRC I like it...
12:42 <@froodian> i open bugmail and wonder why the hell i can't see the new comments :p
12:42 <@pinkerton> what i've seen on a lot of form pages here at google is that reloading a page 
                   *does not* clear the forms
12:42 <@ss> Right, so we have two differing opinions about which is better. We've known that a 
12:42 <@ardissone|food>
12:42 <@pinkerton> our shistory must be preserving it
12:42 <@ss> Oh
12:42 <@ardissone|food> reload mostly preserves forms
12:42 <@smorgan> ss: yes, but I was getting the impression people were doing something very 
12:42 <@pinkerton> even a shift-reload doesn't clear it
12:42 <@ss> If it's a soft refresh, yeah.
12:42 <@ardissone|food> ew
12:42 <@ss> Heh
12:42  * pinkerton tries something
12:42 <@ardissone|food> shift-reload should
12:42 <@ss> That's Google being weird. ;)
12:42 <@smorgan> since I don't keep my news sites in IRC
12:42 <@peeja> remember, it's not just forms, it's dynamic content too
12:43 <@smorgan> and that's what people mostly bring up
12:43 <@ss> smorgan: Yeah, it's not news sites. I have work-related sites, etc.
12:43 <@pinkerton> ah yes, shift-reload cleared it
12:43 <@ss> Mostly on IRC, but things from mail as well.
12:43 <@pinkerton> but reload did not
12:43 <@pinkerton> so data loss chance is low
12:43 <@ardissone|food> (bugzilla sometimes loses my content on soft-reload/fastback, which is 
12:43 <@froodian> let's hard-reload then.  just to make sure we get data loss ;) (j/k)
12:43 <@pinkerton> so let's go with reload
12:43 <@smorgan> sure
12:43 <@pinkerton> i'm pretty comfortable standing behind that
12:44 <@froodian> sure
12:44 <@ss> Sounds good
12:44 <@pinkerton> bueno
12:44 <@ss> Alright, next bug? ;)
12:44 <@ss> bug 370721
12:44 < thebot> ss: Bug maj, --, Camino1.1, 
      , NEW, Image dragged from the Desktop to the content area fails to 
12:44 <@ss> There's a patch there now (thanks mento)
12:44 <@ss> What's next? How much do we need to vet that to get it on the branch?
12:45 <@pinkerton> sr=pink on that keychain bug
12:45 <@ss> Awesome
12:46 <@ardissone|food> yay, we need to get that in and make sure that's the end of keychain bugs 
                        for 1.1 ;)
12:46 -!- thebot was kicked from #camino-mtg by ss
12:46 -!- kreeger has left #camino-mtg
12:46 <@peeja> sure, kill the messenger, ss
12:47 <@ss> :)
12:47 <@smorgan> The upshot of that bug is the keychain fix for 1.0.5 should be way easier
12:47  * pinkerton looks at mento's patch and wonders why that would have regressed
12:48 <@smorgan> mento broke it originally ;)
12:48 <@pinkerton> ha ok
12:48 <@smorgan> here's a question: is anyone still seeing the random version of the no-content bug?
12:48 <@smorgan> I haven't seen it in quite a while
12:48 <@ardissone|food> yes
12:48 <@ardissone|food> daily
12:49 <@smorgan> Then I think maybe it's content-related
12:49 <@Pinolo> which bug?
12:49 <@ardissone|food> :/
12:49 <@ardissone|food> sometimes afger only an hour of use of a new camino
12:49 <@smorgan> I remember one day we all said it was really bad that day
12:49 <@ardissone|food> bug 350331
12:49 <@ardissone|food> er
12:49 ! ardissone|food invited thebot into the channel.
12:49 -!- thebot has joined #camino-mtg
12:49 <@ss> I already kicked thebot. ;)
12:49 <@ardissone|food> bug 350331
12:49 < thebot> ardissone|food: Bug maj, --, 
                Camino1.1,, NEW, Pages sometimes fail to render (blank content) 
                when loaded; resizing the window fixes display
12:49 <@smorgan> The only thing I could think of (unless it's aliens) is something in a testcase we 
                 all looked at triggered it
12:49 -!- thebot was kicked from #camino-mtg by ardissone|food [ty]
12:50 <@ss> Weird, really?
12:50 <@ardissone|food> i often see if when going from df homepage to df linked list
12:50 <@Pinolo> never happened to me
12:50 <@murph> I can chime in and say that I thankfully haven't seen it  :\ 
12:50 <@ardissone|food> i wonder if it's also drag-related?
12:50 <@pinkerton> i only see the random case on my mbp, which i don't use much
12:51 <@pinkerton> usually only when i'm in cali
12:51 <@pinkerton> and sitting next to stuart grumbling about it ;)
12:51 <@ardissone|food> i.e., i tend to drag stuff to content area
12:51 <@ardissone|food> heh, so 2.5 weeks for pink to see it ;)
12:51 <@froodian> i see it very rarely
12:52 <@ardissone|food> indeed :)
12:52 <@froodian> so... sounds like we should ask for review from someone on it
12:53 <@froodian> (where it = bug 370721)
12:53 <@ss> Yeah, but whom and do we realistically think we'll get it on branch?
12:54 <@ss> My concern is that we'll get it reviewed only to have it not do anything.
12:54 <@ss> Because it'll need some pretty heavy testing.
12:54 <@froodian> we should get a MoCo QA guy to test it
12:54 <@froodian> like, say
12:54 <@froodian> you
12:54 <@froodian> ;)
12:54 <@ss> Bah. I'm not one of those testers. ;)
12:55 <@ss> But in any case, mento was concerned about it
12:56 <@pinkerton> yeah, i'd be a bit as well
12:56 <@pinkerton> but wait
12:56 <@pinkerton> getting it on the branch would mean a mini-branch of those files right?
12:56 <@ss> It could
12:56 <@pinkerton> becuse it's security-only on the 18branch from now on?
12:56 <@ss> Or it could mean getting approval.
12:56 <@pinkerton> so firefox wouldn't be affected
12:56 <@ss> Security/stability
12:56 <@ss> It's possible to get approval
12:56 <@pinkerton> probably hard to argue that affects either
12:57 <@ss> For there were a bunch of non-s/s related changes.
12:57 <@pinkerton> "we want to get approval on something so we can see if it breaks" :D
12:57 <@ss> A *bunch*
12:57 <@pinkerton> ah
12:57 <@ss> Haha
12:57 <@ss> Yeah...
12:57 <@ardissone|food> well, ideally, we want to know what needs to be tested first
12:57 <@ardissone|food> so we can say "look, it doesn't break you"
12:58 <@smorgan> (speaking of branch patches, the coord fix is still rotting on approval, despite 
                 everyone affected by the patch wanting it)
12:58 <@pinkerton> yeah, can ss poke the right people?
12:58 <@ss> I can, yeah
12:58 <@ss> Bug #?
12:58 <@ardissone|food> let's poke ss
12:58 <@ardissone|food> heh
12:58 ! froodian invited thebot into the channel.
12:58 -!- thebot has joined #camino-mtg
12:59 <@ardissone|food> i don't have a good query for fixed bugs :/
12:59 <@smorgan> bug 350018
12:59 < thebot> smorgan: Bug nor, --, ---, 
      , RESO FIXED, nsIFrame code returns coordinates with (0, 0) in 
                bottom-left on mac
13:00 -!- thebot was kicked from #camino-mtg by froodian [preemptive strike]
13:00 <@ardissone|food> and bugzilla is slower than molasses is froodian's backyard now
13:00 <@ss> You have to understand, also, that just shipped
13:00 <@ss> And they spent a lot of work on that to get it out quick.
13:01 <@ss> But yeah, I'll make sure that goes through and hopefully gets approval
13:01 -!- TheJosh has joined #camino-mtg
13:01 <@ardissone|food> javier has another branch patch waiting for mento to r+
13:01 <@ardissone|food> and it'll need approval, too
13:02 <@ardissone|food> that will fix, or mostly fix, the key stuff that webdev mailed the ML about
13:02 <@ss> Going back to where we were....
13:02 <@ss> We can take that patch on a mini branch
13:02 <@ss> Although it'll still need review at the very least.
13:02 <@ss> Minibranching isn't fun, of course.
13:02 <@smorgan> presumably we just need to test not regressing bug 345425 for landing on branch
13:03 <@ss> Did 345425 cause 370721?
13:03 <@ss> I mean, we can treat it as a regression from another patch, which makes it more likely 
            to land.
13:04 <@smorgan> That's my understanding
13:04 <@ss> Especially since that patch landed between 1.8.0 and 1.8.1
13:04 <@ardissone|food> i believe the answer is yes
13:04 <@ss> Good.
13:04 <@ss> That'll make the case better.
13:04 <@ardissone|food> but i can;t get bugs to load
13:04 <@ardissone|food> yeah, that's correct
13:04 <@ss> Awesome.
13:05 <@ss> So let's get it reviewed quickly.
13:05 <@ss> pinkerton: You want to review? ;)
13:05 <@ardissone|food> let smorgan do it and pink sr ;)
13:05 <@ss> smorgan: You up for reviewing widget/mac stuff?
13:06 <@smorgan> I have in the past. I can look at it
13:06 -!- TheJosh has quit
13:06 <@ss> Awesome, let's try and rush this through so we can get it for
13:06 <@ss> Anything else guys?
13:07 <@ss> Oh, I'll get Seth to give it a couple of tests as well.
13:07 <@ss> So we can make sure it doesn't regress aything.
13:07 <@ss> anything*
13:07 <@ss> Since that other bug was his.
13:07 <@pinkerton> ok
13:07 <@pinkerton> if he's not too busy with his kids
13:07 <@ss> Hahahahaha
13:07 <@ss> I've given his so much slack for that.
13:08 <@ss> It's amazing how quickly it spread.
13:08 <@pinkerton> he's paying child support in 9 different states
13:08 <@froodian> so, sounds like this meeting has completely divolved...
13:08 -!- TheJosh has joined #camino-mtg
13:08 <@froodian> *devolved
13:08 <@pinkerton> lol sorry
13:08 <@ss> Yeah, see you all next week
13:09 <@ss> (And in #camino)
13:09 <@froodian> ;)