Status Meetings:2007-07-25:Log
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[03:04am] You were promoted to operator by chanserv. [03:04am] You changed the topic to "http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2007-07-25:Agenda". [11:42am] murph joined the chat room. [11:50am] jeff joined the chat room. [11:59am] _Tsk_ was promoted to operator by you. [11:59am] murph was promoted to operator by you. [11:59am] jeff was promoted to operator by you. [11:59am] You are now known as ardissone|food. [11:59am] kreeger joined the chat room. [12:00pm] peeja joined the chat room. [12:01pm] kreeger was promoted to operator by you. [12:01pm] peeja was promoted to operator by you. [12:07pm] smorgan joined the chat room. [12:07pm] smorgan was promoted to operator by you. [12:07pm] smorgan: sorry I'm late [12:08pm] ardissone|food: no mento here yet; i sorta expected him [12:09pm] ardissone|food: i guess we can get started, then [12:10pm] ardissone|food: everyone open your Camino to http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2007-07-25:Agenda [12:10pm] ardissone|food: nothing really new wrt 1.5 itself [12:11pm] ardissone|food: 1.5.1 is next [12:11pm] ardissone|food: Gecko 1815 was a firedrill+ release last week [12:11pm] ardissone|food: 1816 is expected this week, as another firedrill release [12:12pm] ardissone|food: we'll do 1.5.1 off of that [12:12pm] ardissone|food: thanks to smorgan, everything is landed except bookmark logging removal, some localized dmg string changes, and relnotes [12:13pm] ardissone|food: so we should be good to go soon [12:13pm] ardissone|food: 1.0.6 is also almost ready [12:14pm] ardissone|food: we're waiting on Gecko 1.8.0.13, which will come after Gecko 1.8.1.6 [12:14pm] ardissone|food: and relnotes, but all the code has landed there, too [12:14pm] ardissone|food: so probably 2 releases in the next two weeks [12:15pm] ardissone|food: we need to make sure to get our 10.2 guy on the forum to test the 1.0.6 [12:15pm] ardissone|food: nothing new to say about 1.6 [12:16pm] ardissone|food: The mission statement got blogged last night on The Camino Blog [12:16pm] ardissone|food: it also appears at the top of our development roadmap now [12:16pm] peeja: Woohoo! [12:17pm] ardissone|food: it'll appear elsewhere as we add stuff [12:17pm] ardissone|food: Weekly SoC 2007 update: [12:18pm] ardissone|food: don't both of you jump in at once [12:18pm] peeja: Still trying to move code and make a patch [12:19pm] peeja: Hopefully that'll be done today [12:19pm] jeff: submitted a patch, have another coming soon for SR [12:20pm] ardissone|food: peeja: is the bookmarks, or windows and tabs? [12:20pm] ardissone|food: s/the/this/ [12:20pm] peeja: Bookmarks [12:21pm] peeja: / both [12:21pm] ardissone|food: k [12:21pm] ardissone|food: just in case anyone in the world missed it [12:21pm] peeja: Which means Toolbar Items is next [12:22pm] ardissone|food: we switched to .xcodeproj last week [12:22pm] ardissone|food: so everyone can make their own project patches now [12:22pm] peeja: that makes my job a lot easier [12:23pm] ardissone|food: we have some bugs outstanding from non-regulars that need project patches; i'm going to try to teach cl how to do that [12:23pm] ardissone|food: tinderboxen [12:24pm] ardissone|food: mento has been working for the better part of every day on various issues [12:24pm] ardissone|food: MoCo has mail issues and is calling tinderbox email spam [12:24pm] ardissone|food: thus all the yellow [12:24pm] ardissone|food: [12:25pm] ardissone|food: and the pageloader is broken, which accounts for Tp creep [12:25pm] ardissone|food: and something's just wrong with maya-trunk, and mento hasn't figured that out yet to my knowledge [12:26pm] ardissone|food: both queues are pretty full right now [12:26pm] smorgan: Does it need some kind of kicking over from the dialog at launch, or does that clean itself up? [12:26pm] ardissone|food: orange predated that [12:26pm] smorgan: sorry, just noticed I've become an sr sink; trying to clear now [12:26pm] ardissone|food: smorgan: just me, i think [12:27pm] ardissone|food: froodian is without internet, so don't target him for reviews [12:27pm] smorgan: kreeger, murph: I've been picking between you at random since you are the only reviewers around at the moment [12:27pm] ardissone|food: if you can pick up reviews targeted at froodian, please do [12:28pm] ardissone|food: (you can use the queue link at the bottom of the agenda pages to see the queues) [12:28pm] ardissone|food: smorgan: how long are you going to be gone? [12:28pm] smorgan: Until Sunday [12:29pm] ardissone|food: and josh is also on vacation [12:29pm] cl|zzz joined the chat room. [12:29pm] cl|zzz was promoted to operator by you. [12:29pm] ardissone|food: so if you need expedient reviews for whatever reason, choose wisely [12:30pm] cl|zzz is now known as cl. [12:30pm] ardissone|food: anything else before we move to bugs? [12:30pm] cl is now known as cl|zzz. [12:30pm] cl|zzz is now known as cl. [12:30pm] ardissone|food: ok then [12:31pm] murph: smorgan: that's fine, I kept meaning to pick up a few from the queue anyway [12:31pm] ardissone|food: I want to start with the unfiled trunk suckage that's mentioned [12:32pm] ardissone|food: we've gotten two reports now of major trunk suckage since smichaud's combo patch [12:32pm] kreeger: smorgan: no prob [12:32pm] kreeger: smorgan: sorry, i've been swamped with work and finishing up school the past week [12:32pm] smorgan: WindowServers are overrated [12:32pm] ardissone|food: that we're making WindowServer gobble tons of ram or crash [12:32pm] smorgan: kreeger: no prob [12:32pm] kreeger: ill try and get on them before the end of the week [12:33pm] ardissone|food: has anyone else on trunk been seeing something like this? [12:34pm] smorgan: I haven't, but I also haven't been paying attention [12:34pm] ardissone|food: it seemed to really fubar Wevah, but the guy from irc didn't report symptoms quite as bad [12:35pm] ardissone|food: is there any sort of logging he can run? [12:35pm] ardissone|food: or other info he can provide? [12:36pm] smorgan: As a very wild guess, there's a small chance checking the number of ports used by Camino would be interesting [12:36pm] smorgan: (in top) [12:36pm] ardissone|food: k [12:37pm] ardissone|food: and do that periodically, or just when issues are noticed [12:37pm] ardissone|food: ? [12:37pm] smorgan: Just while it's freaking out to see if it's at all relevant [12:37pm] ardissone|food: ok [12:39pm] ardissone|food: please do keep your eyes open for trunk suckage, this and other, so we don't get lost while they fix firefox and break us [12:40pm] cl: is there any way I might trigger this trunk suckage, or is it intel-only? [12:40pm] ardissone|food: i dunno [12:40pm] ardissone|food: "use camino for a while" [12:40pm] cl: because I haven't noticed anything odd lately. [12:40pm] cl: k, i'll keep an eye out [12:40pm] ardissone|food: i didn't ask the guy if he was intel or not [12:41pm] thebot joined the chat room. [12:41pm] ardissone|food: rockin' cool bug 201723 [12:41pm] thebot: ardissone|food: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=201723 enh, P3, Camino1.6, murph@seanmurph.com, ASSI, Search engine "editor" (easier way to add other engines to the Search field's menu) [12:41pm] cl: pats murph on the back [12:41pm] ardissone|food: everyone's seen the demo? [12:42pm] cl: i have [12:42pm] jeff: yes very cool [12:43pm] ardissone|food: do we have any major issues with the impl before murph starts posting code? [12:43pm] cl: it doesn't wash my car for me [12:43pm] kreeger left the chat room. (Quit: kreeger) [12:43pm] cl: but maybe we can get that in a followup bug [12:43pm] murph: I've been working on it pretty steadily and hope to have a patch soon [12:43pm] murph: hehe [12:44pm] jeff: No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame. [12:44pm] jeff: [12:44pm] cl: there we go [12:44pm] cl: i do have one question, I guess [12:44pm] cl: wasn't there some discussion about supporting the OpenSearch definition of search engines? [12:45pm] murph: yeah, we have a separate bug for that, which I've also taken on [12:45pm] cl: if so, would now be a good time to integrate that? or is that pretty much easy to do once the hard part is done? [12:45pm] murph: well, I think the plan was to get this editor in place first, because we need to allow easy removal of engines added via opensearch [12:45pm] cl: k [12:45pm] smorgan: I can't remember whether this was mentioned in the bug already, but it's not clear to me why as a user I would click the magnifying class, then click the search field on the page [12:45pm] ardissone|food: my only concern was with discoverability of the looking glass [12:45pm] ardissone|food: yeah [12:46pm] murph: smorgan: that did come up in the bug, and I have no prob changing that behavior... [12:46pm] ardissone|food: the metaphor is "right" but it just doesn't click for me somehow [12:47pm] peeja: i'm not sure what, but I'll bet there's somthing else that would make sense to click [12:47pm] ardissone|food: i don't think comment 26 is really the solution, either [12:47pm] peeja: instead of a mag glass [12:47pm] cl: we need a usability panel consisting of pink's gf, my mom, and maybe three or four similar people [12:47pm] smorgan: If users are supposed to click something on the page, it seems like those things need to be highlighted in some way [12:48pm] cl: smorgan++ [12:48pm] ardissone|food: heh [12:48pm] smorgan: It's not just the magnifying glass, it's that I would have no idea what to do once I'd clicked that [12:48pm] thebot: Just appeared in Planet Mozilla - http://planet.mozilla.org/ : [12:48pm] peeja: thebot: oh, be quiet [12:48pm] ardissone|food: how long has the core been unable do do focus rings? [12:49pm] thebot: Mitchell Baker: Email Call to Action [12:49pm] peeja: can we overlay a transparency? [12:49pm] peeja: darken everything but clickable fields? [12:50pm] cl: ardissone|food: for at least three years? [12:50pm] murph: yea, that's definitely a better approach; I'm not sure what kinda Core skill it would require [12:50pm] cl: likes peeja's idea [12:51pm] smorgan: Alternately: how well would it work to scan all the forms on the page and make a popup menu for each, maybe labeled with the submit button? [12:51pm] ardissone|food: ? [12:52pm] peeja: no, too much chance of weird hidden stuff surfacing, i'd say [12:52pm] peeja: and the user's not thinking about the text of the submit button (or any control) as much as the location on the page [12:53pm] murph: in the case of an advanced search form, we'd have trouble discovering the primary text field (in there are other optional ones) [12:53pm] smorgan: Ah, true [12:54pm] smorgan: BTW, I believe you'll need to filter out post forms for the moment [12:55pm] thebot: New build added to MozillaTest: linux_build (status: Success). [12:55pm] You kicked thebot from the chat room. (bugs only, none of this other crap) [12:56pm] murph: yeah, I was thinking POST could be a problem, and could be another confusion for the user [12:57pm] smorgan: Perhaps for now just have hint text telling the user to click a text field, and remove the need for the magnifying glass [12:57pm] smorgan: enhancements like an overlay or other discoverability aids can happen later [12:57pm] ardissone|food: another question: depending on what's involved with getting the "user click" stuff right, is it reasonable to do the basic editor (without that part) and then opensearch and friends [12:57pm] ardissone|food: or that [12:58pm] smorgan: yeah, that's another option [12:58pm] smorgan: Just opensearch + the viewer/remover [12:58pm] ardissone|food: that'll get the 75% case [12:58pm] ardissone|food: while we work on that last 25% [12:59pm] murph: if I rip out the discovery, should I still leave in "advanced add?" [12:59pm] smorgan: you mean ardissone|food's suggestion? [12:59pm] murph: yes [12:59pm] smorgan: I'd say not [1:00pm] ardissone|food: my gut says leave it in [1:00pm] ardissone|food: but i dunno [1:00pm] smorgan: The %s/%d thing needs to go [1:00pm] ardissone|food: is getting the video again to check the ui [1:01pm] smorgan: "Special URL Tokens" is not a meaningful phrase to most users [1:01pm] murph: I'd love to support the installation of OpenSearch engines via javscript, which would make discoverability less of a necessity [1:01pm] murph: smorgan: alrighty, I hear you there [1:02pm] smorgan: I'd really much rather see a solution where users don't see a URL field at all [1:02pm] smorgan: because a whole lot of people will never understand it [1:03pm] smorgan: Being able to go to something like the FF search engines page would be much friendlier [1:03pm] smorgan: And/or OpenSearch discovery [1:04pm] murph: an engines page was what I had in mind when I said about javascript installation: [1:04pm] murph: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Adding_search_engines_from_web_pages [1:04pm] smorgan: yep [1:05pm] ardissone|food: so we offer a page full of additional engines? [1:05pm] ardissone|food: on cbo [1:05pm] smorgan: Or we make it work with existing pages [1:05pm] ardissone|food: thought that was opensearch discovery [1:06pm] ardissone|food: is all confused [1:06pm] murph: Firefox's search engines page adds new ones using javascript, from either an OpenSearch or Sherlock specification [1:08pm] murph: if Camino can parse OpenSearch, we can use this to: [1:08pm] murph: recognize when a page announces an OpenSearch capability, (much like it would an RSS feed) [1:10pm] murph: or allow engines to be installed programatically from a page (for example, a list of engines) [1:11pm] smorgan: So for now, how about an editor that removes and re-orders, and opensearch for adding, and we can see where we want to go from there [1:11pm] ardissone|food: that sounds managable [1:11pm] ardissone|food: we don't actually support order, though, do we? [1:11pm] smorgan: If we still think we need a way for end-users to create new search engines dynamically, we can look at ways to make that as discoverable and consistent as possible [1:12pm] smorgan: No, but I think we should [1:12pm] smorgan: And it's not a hard change code-wise [1:12pm] ardissone|food: ok [1:12pm] smorgan: Hrm [1:12pm] ardissone|food: and change the default [1:12pm] smorgan: Except that it will mean changing the file format [1:12pm] smorgan: That too [1:13pm] murph: are we willing to change the format? [1:13pm] smorgan: We'd need to put migration code in [1:14pm] ardissone|food: kill the plist, or add a new key for ordering ? [1:14pm] peeja: what's wrong with the format? [1:14pm] smorgan: Just be able to read eithre plist, and write the new plist as an array [1:14pm] smorgan: peeja: isn't it a dictionary right now? [1:15pm] peeja: oh. I'm not sure, but that would seem odd. what's the key? [1:15pm] smorgan: Yeah, it's a name/url dictionary [1:15pm] peeja: oh. then what you said. [1:15pm] smorgan: It's already a bit wacky, in that the default is just another entry in the dictionary [1:15pm] smorgan: Changing the format is not a big deal, and ordering is worth it [1:16pm] peeja: better not to store data in keys anyhow [1:16pm] ardissone|food: ok, we are all agreed on an action plan for that bug, then? [1:16pm] smorgan: murph: I can do a patch to change the file format later, if you don't want to mess with that part [1:17pm] murph: yep, this course of action is fine by me [1:17pm] ardissone|food: ok [1:18pm] ardissone|food: we've run a bit long [1:18pm] ardissone|food: i'll be offline next week [1:18pm] ardissone|food: hopefully ss will be awake for the meeting then [1:18pm] ardissone|food: please do mind your queues, and keep an eye on the trunk [1:19pm] ardissone|food: any last things? [1:20pm] ardissone|food: thanks everyone, and have a good week! [1:20pm] ardissone|food: (or two)