Status Meetings:2007-07-25:Log

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[03:04am] You were promoted to operator by chanserv.
[03:04am] You changed the topic to "".
[11:42am] murph joined the chat room.
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[11:59am] murph was promoted to operator by you.
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[11:59am] You are now known as ardissone|food.
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[12:07pm] smorgan joined the chat room.
[12:07pm] smorgan was promoted to operator by you.
[12:07pm] smorgan: sorry I'm late
[12:08pm] ardissone|food: no mento here yet; i sorta expected him
[12:09pm] ardissone|food: i guess we can get started, then
[12:10pm] ardissone|food: everyone open your Camino to
[12:10pm] ardissone|food: nothing really new wrt 1.5 itself
[12:11pm] ardissone|food: 1.5.1 is next
[12:11pm] ardissone|food: Gecko 1815 was a firedrill+ release last week
[12:11pm] ardissone|food: 1816 is expected this week, as another firedrill release
[12:12pm] ardissone|food: we'll do 1.5.1 off of that
[12:12pm] ardissone|food: thanks to smorgan, everything is landed except bookmark logging removal, some localized dmg string changes, and relnotes
[12:13pm] ardissone|food: so we should be good to go soon
[12:13pm] ardissone|food: 1.0.6 is also almost ready
[12:14pm] ardissone|food: we're waiting on Gecko, which will come after Gecko
[12:14pm] ardissone|food: and relnotes, but all the code has landed there, too
[12:14pm] ardissone|food: so probably 2 releases in the next two weeks
[12:15pm] ardissone|food: we need to make sure to get our 10.2 guy on the forum to test the 1.0.6
[12:15pm] ardissone|food: nothing new to say about 1.6
[12:16pm] ardissone|food: The mission statement got blogged last night on The Camino Blog
[12:16pm] ardissone|food: it also appears at the top of our development roadmap now
[12:16pm] peeja: Woohoo!
[12:17pm] ardissone|food: it'll appear elsewhere as we add stuff
[12:17pm] ardissone|food: Weekly SoC 2007 update:
[12:18pm] ardissone|food: don't both of you jump in at once 
[12:18pm] peeja: Still trying to move code and make a patch
[12:19pm] peeja: Hopefully that'll be done today
[12:19pm] jeff: submitted a patch, have another coming soon for SR
[12:20pm] ardissone|food: peeja: is the bookmarks, or windows and tabs?
[12:20pm] ardissone|food: s/the/this/
[12:20pm] peeja: Bookmarks
[12:21pm] peeja:  / both
[12:21pm] ardissone|food: k
[12:21pm] ardissone|food: just in case anyone in the world missed it
[12:21pm] peeja: Which means Toolbar Items is next
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: we switched to .xcodeproj last week
[12:22pm] ardissone|food: so everyone can make their own project patches now
[12:22pm] peeja: that makes my job a lot easier 
[12:23pm] ardissone|food: we have some bugs outstanding from non-regulars that need project patches; i'm going to try to teach cl how to do that 
[12:23pm] ardissone|food: tinderboxen
[12:24pm] ardissone|food: mento has been working for the better part of every day on various issues
[12:24pm] ardissone|food: MoCo has mail issues and is calling tinderbox email spam
[12:24pm] ardissone|food: thus all the yellow
[12:24pm] ardissone|food:
[12:25pm] ardissone|food: and the pageloader is broken, which accounts for Tp creep
[12:25pm] ardissone|food: and something's just wrong with maya-trunk, and mento hasn't figured that out yet to my knowledge
[12:26pm] ardissone|food: both queues are pretty full right now
[12:26pm] smorgan: Does it need some kind of kicking over from the dialog at launch, or does that clean itself up?
[12:26pm] ardissone|food: orange predated that
[12:26pm] smorgan: sorry, just noticed I've become an sr sink; trying to clear now
[12:26pm] ardissone|food: smorgan: just me, i think 
[12:27pm] ardissone|food: froodian is without internet, so don't target him for reviews
[12:27pm] smorgan: kreeger, murph: I've been picking between you at random since you are the only reviewers around at the moment
[12:27pm] ardissone|food: if you can pick up reviews targeted at froodian, please do
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: (you can use the queue link at the bottom of the agenda pages to see the queues)
[12:28pm] ardissone|food: smorgan: how long are you going to be gone?
[12:28pm] smorgan: Until Sunday
[12:29pm] ardissone|food: and josh is also on vacation
[12:29pm] cl|zzz joined the chat room.
[12:29pm] cl|zzz was promoted to operator by you.
[12:29pm] ardissone|food: so if you need expedient reviews for whatever reason, choose wisely 
[12:30pm] cl|zzz is now known as cl.
[12:30pm] ardissone|food: anything else before we move to bugs?
[12:30pm] cl is now known as cl|zzz.
[12:30pm] cl|zzz is now known as cl.
[12:30pm] ardissone|food: ok then
[12:31pm] murph: smorgan: that's fine, I kept meaning to pick up a few from the queue anyway
[12:31pm] ardissone|food: I want to start with the unfiled trunk suckage that's mentioned
[12:32pm] ardissone|food: we've gotten two reports now of major trunk suckage since smichaud's combo patch
[12:32pm] kreeger: smorgan: no prob
[12:32pm] kreeger: smorgan: sorry, i've been swamped with work and finishing up school the past week
[12:32pm] smorgan: WindowServers are overrated
[12:32pm] ardissone|food: that we're making WindowServer gobble tons of ram or crash
[12:32pm] smorgan: kreeger: no prob
[12:32pm] kreeger: ill try and get on them before the end of the week
[12:33pm] ardissone|food: has anyone else on trunk been seeing something like this?
[12:34pm] smorgan: I haven't, but I also haven't been paying attention
[12:34pm] ardissone|food: it seemed to really fubar Wevah, but the guy from irc didn't report symptoms quite as bad
[12:35pm] ardissone|food: is there any sort of logging he can run?
[12:35pm] ardissone|food: or other info he can provide?
[12:36pm] smorgan: As a very wild guess, there's a small chance checking the number of ports used by Camino would be interesting
[12:36pm] smorgan: (in top)
[12:36pm] ardissone|food: k
[12:37pm] ardissone|food: and do that periodically, or just when issues are noticed
[12:37pm] ardissone|food: ?
[12:37pm] smorgan: Just while it's freaking out to see if it's at all relevant
[12:37pm] ardissone|food: ok
[12:39pm] ardissone|food: please do keep your eyes open for trunk suckage, this and other, so we don't get lost while they fix firefox and break us 
[12:40pm] cl: is there any way I might trigger this trunk suckage, or is it intel-only?
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: i dunno
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: "use camino for a while"
[12:40pm] cl: because I haven't noticed anything odd lately.
[12:40pm] cl: k, i'll keep an eye out
[12:40pm] ardissone|food: i didn't ask the guy if he was intel or not
[12:41pm] thebot joined the chat room.
[12:41pm] ardissone|food: rockin' cool bug 201723
[12:41pm] thebot: ardissone|food: Bug enh, P3, Camino1.6,, ASSI, Search engine "editor" (easier way to add other engines to the Search field's menu)
[12:41pm] cl: pats murph on the back
[12:41pm] ardissone|food: everyone's seen the demo?
[12:42pm] cl: i have
[12:42pm] jeff: yes very cool
[12:43pm] ardissone|food: do we have any major issues with the impl before murph starts posting code?
[12:43pm] cl: it doesn't wash my car for me
[12:43pm] kreeger left the chat room. (Quit: kreeger)
[12:43pm] cl: but maybe we can get that in a followup bug 
[12:43pm] murph: I've been working on it pretty steadily and hope to have a patch soon
[12:43pm] murph: hehe
[12:44pm] jeff: No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.
[12:44pm] jeff:
[12:44pm] cl: there we go
[12:44pm] cl: i do have one question, I guess
[12:44pm] cl: wasn't there some discussion about supporting the OpenSearch definition of search engines?
[12:45pm] murph: yeah, we have a separate bug for that, which I've also taken on
[12:45pm] cl: if so, would now be a good time to integrate that? or is that pretty much easy to do once the hard part is done?
[12:45pm] murph: well, I think the plan was to get this editor in place first, because we need to allow easy removal of engines added via opensearch
[12:45pm] cl: k
[12:45pm] smorgan: I can't remember whether this was mentioned in the bug already, but it's not clear to me why as a user I would click the magnifying class, then click the search field on the page
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: my only concern was with discoverability of the looking glass
[12:45pm] ardissone|food: yeah
[12:46pm] murph: smorgan: that did come up in the bug, and I have no prob changing that behavior...
[12:46pm] ardissone|food: the metaphor is "right" but it just doesn't click for me somehow
[12:47pm] peeja: i'm not sure what, but I'll bet there's somthing else that would make sense to click
[12:47pm] ardissone|food: i don't think comment 26 is really the solution, either
[12:47pm] peeja: instead of a mag glass
[12:47pm] cl: we need a usability panel consisting of pink's gf, my mom, and maybe three or four similar people 
[12:47pm] smorgan: If users are supposed to click something on the page, it seems like those things need to be highlighted in some way
[12:48pm] cl: smorgan++
[12:48pm] ardissone|food: heh
[12:48pm] smorgan: It's not just the magnifying glass, it's that I would have no idea what to do once I'd clicked that
[12:48pm] thebot: Just appeared in Planet Mozilla - : 
[12:48pm] peeja: thebot: oh, be quiet
[12:48pm] ardissone|food: how long has the core been unable do do focus rings? 
[12:49pm] thebot: Mitchell Baker: Email Call to Action
[12:49pm] peeja: can we overlay a transparency?
[12:49pm] peeja: darken everything but clickable fields?
[12:50pm] cl: ardissone|food: for at least three years? 
[12:50pm] murph: yea, that's definitely a better approach; I'm not sure what kinda Core skill it would require
[12:50pm] cl: likes peeja's idea
[12:51pm] smorgan: Alternately: how well would it work to scan all the forms on the page and make a popup menu for each, maybe labeled with the submit button?
[12:51pm] ardissone|food: ?
[12:52pm] peeja: no, too much chance of weird hidden stuff surfacing, i'd say
[12:52pm] peeja: and the user's not thinking about the text of the submit button (or any control) as much as the location on the page
[12:53pm] murph: in the case of an advanced search form, we'd have trouble discovering the primary text field (in there are other optional ones)
[12:53pm] smorgan: Ah, true
[12:54pm] smorgan: BTW, I believe you'll need to filter out post forms for the moment
[12:55pm] thebot: New build added to MozillaTest: linux_build (status: Success).
[12:55pm] You kicked thebot from the chat room. (bugs only, none of this other crap)
[12:56pm] murph: yeah, I was thinking POST could be a problem, and could be another confusion for the user  
[12:57pm] smorgan: Perhaps for now just have hint text telling the user to click a text field, and remove the need for the magnifying glass
[12:57pm] smorgan: enhancements like an overlay or other discoverability aids can happen later
[12:57pm] ardissone|food: another question: depending on what's involved with getting the "user click" stuff right, is it reasonable to do the basic editor (without that part) and then opensearch and friends
[12:57pm] ardissone|food: or that 
[12:58pm] smorgan: yeah, that's another option
[12:58pm] smorgan: Just opensearch + the viewer/remover
[12:58pm] ardissone|food: that'll get the 75% case
[12:58pm] ardissone|food: while we work on that last 25%
[12:59pm] murph: if I rip out the discovery, should I still leave in "advanced add?"
[12:59pm] smorgan: you mean ardissone|food's suggestion?
[12:59pm] murph: yes
[12:59pm] smorgan: I'd say not
[1:00pm] ardissone|food: my gut says leave it in
[1:00pm] ardissone|food: but i dunno
[1:00pm] smorgan: The %s/%d thing needs to go
[1:00pm] ardissone|food: is getting the video again to check the ui
[1:01pm] smorgan: "Special URL Tokens" is not a meaningful phrase to most users
[1:01pm] murph: I'd love to support the installation of OpenSearch engines via javscript, which would make discoverability less of a necessity
[1:01pm] murph: smorgan: alrighty, I hear you there
[1:02pm] smorgan: I'd really much rather see a solution where users don't see a URL field at all
[1:02pm] smorgan: because a whole lot of people will never understand it
[1:03pm] smorgan: Being able to go to something like the FF search engines page would be much friendlier
[1:03pm] smorgan: And/or OpenSearch discovery
[1:04pm] murph: an engines page was what I had in mind when I said about javascript installation:
[1:04pm] murph:
[1:04pm] smorgan: yep
[1:05pm] ardissone|food: so we offer a page full of additional engines?
[1:05pm] ardissone|food: on cbo
[1:05pm] smorgan: Or we make it work with existing pages
[1:05pm] ardissone|food: thought that was opensearch discovery
[1:06pm] ardissone|food: is all confused
[1:06pm] murph: Firefox's search engines page adds new ones using javascript, from either an OpenSearch or Sherlock specification
[1:08pm] murph: if Camino can parse OpenSearch, we can use this to:
[1:08pm] murph: recognize when a page announces an OpenSearch capability, (much like it would an RSS feed)
[1:10pm] murph: or allow engines to be installed programatically from a page (for example, a list of engines)
[1:11pm] smorgan: So for now, how about an editor that removes and re-orders, and opensearch for adding, and we can see where we want to go from there
[1:11pm] ardissone|food: that sounds managable
[1:11pm] ardissone|food: we don't actually support order, though, do we?
[1:11pm] smorgan: If we still think we need a way for end-users to create new search engines dynamically, we can look at ways to make that as discoverable and consistent as possible
[1:12pm] smorgan: No, but I think we should
[1:12pm] smorgan: And it's not a hard change code-wise
[1:12pm] ardissone|food: ok
[1:12pm] smorgan: Hrm
[1:12pm] ardissone|food: and change the default
[1:12pm] smorgan: Except that it will mean changing the file format
[1:12pm] smorgan: That too
[1:13pm] murph: are we willing to change the format?
[1:13pm] smorgan: We'd need to put migration code in
[1:14pm] ardissone|food: kill the plist, or add a new key for ordering ?
[1:14pm] peeja: what's wrong with the format?
[1:14pm] smorgan: Just be able to read eithre plist, and write the new plist as an array
[1:14pm] smorgan: peeja: isn't it a dictionary right now?
[1:15pm] peeja: oh.  I'm not sure, but that would seem odd.  what's the key?
[1:15pm] smorgan: Yeah, it's a name/url dictionary
[1:15pm] peeja: oh.  then what you said. 
[1:15pm] smorgan: It's already a bit wacky, in that the default is just another entry in the dictionary
[1:15pm] smorgan: Changing the format is not a big deal, and ordering is worth it
[1:16pm] peeja: better not to store data in keys anyhow
[1:16pm] ardissone|food: ok, we are all agreed on an action plan for that bug, then?
[1:16pm] smorgan: murph: I can do a patch to change the file format later, if you don't want to mess with that part
[1:17pm] murph: yep, this course of action is fine by me
[1:17pm] ardissone|food: ok
[1:18pm] ardissone|food: we've run a bit long 
[1:18pm] ardissone|food: i'll be offline next week
[1:18pm] ardissone|food: hopefully ss will be awake for the meeting then 
[1:18pm] ardissone|food: please do mind your queues, and keep an eye on the trunk
[1:19pm] ardissone|food: any last things?
[1:20pm] ardissone|food: thanks everyone, and have a good week!
[1:20pm] ardissone|food: (or two)