Status Meetings:2009-06-17:Log

[12:13pm] You were promoted to operator by chanserv.
[12:13pm] You changed the topic to "http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2009-06-17:Agenda".
[12:13pm] You are now known as ardissone|foraging.
[12:13pm] cl|run was promoted to operator by you.
[12:13pm] dan was promoted to operator by you.
[12:13pm] hendy was promoted to operator by you.
[12:13pm] murph was promoted to operator by you.
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[12:14pm] ardissone|foraging: any pink?
[12:15pm] smorgan: He's in the main channel
[12:16pm] ardissone|foraging: wonders how he missed that 
[12:16pm] ardissone|foraging: not a good day so far 
[12:17pm] pinkerton joined the chat room.
[12:17pm] pinkerton was promoted to operator by chanserv.
[12:17pm] ardissone|foraging: while we wait on pink to join us, everyone open http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2009-06-17:Agenda in your 2.0b3 or newer
[12:17pm] pinkerton: whoops, didn't see the window
[12:17pm] ardissone|foraging: no worries
[12:18pm] ardissone|foraging: b3 is two weeks old tomorrow
[12:18pm] ardissone|foraging: Flash is once again at its rightful place as cause of the most crashes
[12:19pm] ardissone|foraging: #2 is the very unhappy objc_msgSend | -[NSApplication sendEvent:]
[12:20pm] ardissone|foraging: we have no idea what's happening
[12:20pm] ardissone|foraging: other than perhaps it's the bug we've been tracking via https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=470159
[12:21pm] ardissone|foraging: where something's getting freed(?)
[12:21pm] pinkerton: i do like how apple pointed out in their keynote that the greatest number of OS crashes are flash
[12:21pm] ardissone|foraging: yes, indeed 
[12:22pm] ardissone|foraging: #3 is the bug where Flash crashes us after Exposé with a full-screen Flash animation
[12:22pm] ardissone|foraging: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465178
[12:22pm] ardissone|foraging: adobe is supposedly investigating
[12:23pm] ardissone|foraging: #4 is objc exception in the appshell, which should go away next Gecko
[12:23pm] ardissone|foraging: since objc exceptions will no longer be fatal again
[12:24pm] ardissone|foraging: #5 is bad assumptions in swizzling, for which there's a patch: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=496582 
[12:24pm] ardissone|foraging: and after that, we have a long tail of lots of stuff
[12:24pm] ardissone|foraging: anyone have anything else on b3?
[12:26pm] cl|run is now known as cl.
[12:26pm] cl: oh, heh
[12:26pm] cl: oops
[12:26pm] ardissone|foraging: nothing new on 1.6.7
[12:26pm] cl: at least i made it for the important part 
[12:26pm] ardissone|foraging: 1.6.8 is scheduled for Monday
[12:27pm] ardissone|foraging: waiting on l10n build + website + Gecko release
[12:27pm] ardissone|foraging: one show-stopper bug in Simplified Chinese (no CertificatesWindow.nib!)
[12:28pm] ardissone|foraging: hopefully will be fixed by the time Marcello builds
[12:28pm] ardissone|foraging: ok
[12:28pm] ardissone|foraging: anything else on 1.6.x?
[12:30pm] ardissone|foraging: next on the agenda is SoC
[12:30pm] You are now known as ardissone.
[12:30pm] ardissone: everyone's read dan's proposal, right?
[12:31pm] dan: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Development:Summer_of_Code_2009
[12:31pm] dan: It's time to vote!
[12:32pm] dan: There are a few options for a new autocomplete window on the main page
[12:32pm] dan: I'm also interested in one-click bookmarking
[12:32pm] dan: I have made a few mockups of how this could be implemented here: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Development:Summer_of_Code_2009:One_Click_Bookmarking_Mockups
[12:33pm] ardissone: doesn't get the star
[12:33pm] hendy: can we get mockups without the roundrect location bar?
[12:34pm] dan: The star is what Firefox and chrome use for one-click bookmarking
[12:34pm] dan: I thought we should keep that
[12:34pm] ardissone: how does it related to bookmarks?
[12:34pm] ardissone: s/related/relate/
[12:36pm] dan: I don't really know other than a star often means favorite. But it's familiar to Firefox users. It could be changed
[12:36pm] cl: "familiar to firefox users" is generally a bad argument for UI 
[12:36pm] cl: cf middle-click-to-close, close-box-at-right-end-of-tabs, etc.
[12:36pm] smorgan: We should make a decision about the autocomplete list before getting too far into this
[12:36pm] smorgan: My vote is for #2, despite my initial objection to the font size difference
[12:37pm] ardissone: i like 3 and 6
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[12:37pm] ardissone: heh
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[12:38pm] smorgan: Most users don't think in URLs, so I'm against 6
[12:38pm] hendy: i like 3
[12:39pm] dan:
[12:39pm] cl: ...despite the fact that 6 is probably closest to our current implementation? 
[12:39pm] smorgan: cl: our current implement is closest to our current implementation
[12:39pm] cl: I agree with Stuart, though. Most users probably don't think in URLs, so putting the URL first probably isn't the best solution.
[12:39pm] hendy: though 2 is quite good too
[12:39pm] murph: I too like 3, and even 6.  I, for one, love the round location bar as well 
[12:40pm] hendy: noooo!
[12:40pm] dan: I like 1, but will settle with 2
[12:40pm] smorgan: cl: the point of having this as a SoC project is that we don't want the current implementation
[12:40pm] murph: hehe
[12:40pm] cl: i think either 2 or 3, but I have to say, as someone who *does* think in URLs, being able to see at least the last part of the URL would be useful
[12:40pm] cl: middle-truncating the URLs, mabye?
[12:40pm] smorgan: pinkerton: thoughts?
[12:40pm] smorgan: cl: already taken care of; this is visual only
[12:41pm] ardissone: for some reason the spacing between urls in 2 seems too tight even though the font size is smaller
[12:41pm] cl: for the record, I like the roundrects too
[12:41pm] smorgan: Looks like we are all on the same page with favicons==good
[12:42pm] hendy: favicons are your friend
[12:42pm] ardissone: best thing to happen the the bar since sliced cheese!
[12:42pm] ardissone: s/bar/window/
[12:42pm] pinkerton: i think i must be looking at the same page
[12:42pm] pinkerton: er, wrong
[12:42pm] smorgan: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Development:Summer_of_Code_2009
[12:42pm] ardissone: pinkerton: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Development:Summer_of_Code_2009
[12:42pm] pinkerton: ah ha!
[12:43pm] pinkerton: what's the difference between 1 2 3 and 6?
[12:43pm] pinkerton: just font size?
[12:43pm] smorgan: pinkerton: 6 is url-primary
[12:43pm] ardissone: (i'd also really like it if there were a bunch of short titles, the url side got to get the extra space)
[12:43pm] smorgan: 1/2/3 is font sizing
[12:43pm] pinkerton: oh duh
[12:44pm] pinkerton: i like 2 or 3
[12:44pm] pinkerton: easier to read
[12:44pm] smorgan: ardissone: can you file that as an RFE now, so we don't forget?
[12:44pm] ardissone: smorgan: sure
[12:44pm] smorgan: Sorry dan, our eyes are older 
[12:44pm] ardissone: just wanted to make sure everyone didn't hate it
[12:45pm] smorgan: tries to count votes for 2 vs 3...
[12:45pm] dan: yes, well I like 2 as well
[12:45pm] smorgan: Looks like most votes are for "2 or 3"
[12:46pm] smorgan: Anyone feel strongly against one of the two?
[12:46pm] cl: I don't totally object to the smaller font size, but I have young eyes too 
[12:46pm] ardissone: the small headers look odd, too, i think
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[12:46pm] hendy: yeah, 3 is more consistent
[12:46pm] ardissone: i see them better in 3
[12:46pm] dan_: We could make a new pref pane that lets the user choose
[12:47pm] ardissone: in 2, they kinda get lost
[12:47pm] smorgan: dan_: only if it has sliders for each font size and color wells for each font 
[12:47pm] cl: slaps dan with a large trout
[12:47pm] ardissone: Camindecision!
[12:48pm] smorgan: We could also have 2.5, 12pt headers 11pt URL
[12:48pm] ardissone: anyone strongly or moderately object to 3?
[12:48pm] ardissone: or that, too, i suppose
[12:48pm] smorgan: I think dan 
[12:48pm] dan_: well, I think it's ugly
[12:48pm] murph: I think I'd actually prefer the 2.5 option Stuart just mentioned
[12:48pm] smorgan: dan_: have you tried 2.5?
[12:48pm] murph: I like the URLs being distinguished a least a little bit
[12:49pm] murph: I just checked out Safari and the URLs there did seem too small to me
[12:49pm] dan_: No, let me try
[12:50pm] smorgan: Okay, we're mostly bikeshedding now, so let's provisionally go with 2.5, and fall back to 3 later if we hate it
[12:50pm] ardissone: sounds good
[12:50pm] smorgan: It's not like we can't change the font size later, and on all the meaty issues we seem to be in agreement
[12:50pm] dan_: ok
[12:51pm] smorgan: Now, back to bickering about stars 
[12:51pm] ardissone: well
[12:51pm] hendy: does this mean that scrolling through the autocomplete list is a thing of the past?
[12:51pm] ardissone: yeah, that
[12:51pm] dan_: yes 
[12:51pm] hendy: dang
[12:51pm] ardissone: it was conveniently missing from the picture 
[12:51pm] hendy: it's one of the things i like about our current popup
[12:51pm] dan_: I did have one idea for that if it's needed
[12:51pm] ardissone: i think the plan there per the bug was to see what happens with it gone
[12:52pm] smorgan: I want us all to at least try it this way, and think about what we have trouble doing
[12:52pm] smorgan: And think about whether there are better ways to meet those needs
[12:52pm] hendy: sounds like a plan
[12:52pm] smorgan: Because scrolling a tiny window is actually a pretty crappy experience
[12:52pm] cl: *shrug* OK
[12:52pm] ardissone: how tiny will this window be?
[12:52pm] cl: this is part of smorgan's secret plan to get everyone, including ss, dogfooding faster
[12:53pm] ardissone: i assume we have a max-hits for each section (which i have no idea what it does to scrolling in the top section)
[12:53pm] smorgan: Right now it's 5 per
[12:54pm] smorgan: not sure what you mean by top section
[12:54pm] ardissone: bookmarks
[12:54pm] ardissone: scrolling typically adds to the top or bottom of a single object
[12:54pm] ardissone: we have two objects
[12:54pm] hendy: we should put the bookmarks and history results in separate scrollable splitviews
[12:55pm] smorgan: blinks
[12:55pm] ardissone: that would look odd, since this is masquerading as a menu 
[12:55pm] hendy: then everyone will be happy!
[12:55pm] smorgan: We may not always distinguish between bookmarks and history
[12:55pm] smorgan: I suspect it depends on how things go with ranking
[12:56pm] ardissone: anyway, we've gotten dan unblocked, code-wise
[12:57pm] ardissone: before we next talk about stars/1-click, i'd like to see some text describing the rationale/goals
[12:57pm] ardissone: right now that feels like mockups in a vacuum, searching for a problem 
[12:58pm] smorgan: "goal: make pink happy" 
[12:58pm] pinkerton: heh
[12:58pm] dan_: Modern browsers all have it?
[12:58pm] hendy: EOMB!
[12:58pm] cl: I like the general idea of it but I think a star is the wrong metaphor.
[12:58pm] dan_: that was joke
[12:58pm] ardissone: especially since we have several existing bugs on improving the bookmarking experience
[12:58pm] hendy: we have our bookmark icon
[12:58pm] dan_: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Development:Summer_of_Code_2009
[12:58pm] dan_: 2.5 option available
[12:59pm] cl: dan_: can we see a 2.5 option that has the same content in it as the 3 option, please? 
[12:59pm] ardissone: anyway
[12:59pm] dan_: I
[1:00pm] ardissone: last week smorgan made a proposal
[1:00pm] smorgan: Ship it!
[1:00pm] ardissone: it will result in no website and no l10n
[1:01pm] smorgan: We got answers from l10n then?
[1:01pm] ardissone: well, we could ship japanese
[1:01pm] ardissone: many of them, yes
[1:01pm] ardissone: the only one that's shippable now/soon is japanese
[1:02pm] ardissone: the designer was targetting august for the website, iirc
[1:02pm] ardissone: ss: ^^^
[1:02pm] ss: Yeah
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[1:02pm] ss: He's booked us for all/most of July
[1:02pm] dan joined the chat room.
[1:02pm] ss: But won't have a site until August
[1:04pm] smorgan: Sounds like it's not a workable plan then
[1:04pm] ss: And it'd suck not to have any l10n
[1:04pm] ardissone: so let's proceed on the b4 route and whip safebrowsing, cjk fonts, utf-8, and tabsposé into shape
[1:05pm] ardissone: er, and zoom
[1:05pm] hendy: yes, that too
[1:05pm] ardissone: please direct your coding and reviewing efforts at those items
[1:05pm] ardissone: (unless you're tapped for a dan review)
[1:05pm] hendy: locks and loads
[1:06pm] ardissone: does anyone have any particular status item they want to talk about?
[1:06pm] cl: the giant list of UNCOs that need some discussion? 
[1:07pm] ardissone: no, the 2.0 status
[1:07pm] dan was promoted to operator by cl.
[1:07pm] cl: oh, that.
[1:07pm] ardissone:
[1:07pm] cl:
[1:07pm] smorgan: murph: are you going to have time to look at the font pref stuff soon?
[1:07pm] cl: oh, bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485132 could use a review, since that's potential crasher stuff that we'd probably like in 2.0 if we can
[1:08pm] ardissone: !clone murph
[1:08pm] cl: apparently ilya didn't have as much free time as he thought 
[1:08pm] murph: smorgan: Yes, I will have time now, so I will definitely take a look at that
[1:08pm] smorgan: awesome
[1:08pm] murph: the CJK situation, right?
[1:08pm] smorgan: Yes
[1:08pm] smorgan: Which it turn blocks ripping out advanced prefs, IIRC
[1:09pm] ardissone: yup
[1:09pm] hendy: we need mockups for the new Appearances pane too, right
[1:09pm] hendy: ?
[1:09pm] ardissone: we have some
[1:09pm] ardissone: worst-case, we just kill the fonts there
[1:09pm] ardissone: i also screenshotted ExtraFonts
[1:10pm] ardissone: will try and collect everything
[1:10pm] murph: ok, you just want me to worry about fixing https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=391076 right?
[1:10pm] ardissone: murph: yeah, fix the nasty gecko stuff, and then someone else can do the ui while you go back to safebrowsing
[1:11pm] murph: ok, great.  I'll get on it then.
[1:11pm] ardissone: ok
[1:11pm] ardissone: :)
[1:11pm] ardissone: anyone else have any 2.0 items?
[1:12pm] ardissone: ok then
[1:13pm] ardissone: you have your action items; also keep your eyes peeled for that sendEvent: crash
[1:13pm] ardissone: and have a good week :)
[1:13pm] smorgan: And if you are pinkerton, be sure do do your sr's
[1:14pm] pinkerton: feh
[1:14pm] ardissone: yeah, the vox populi want swipe :P
[1:14pm] ardissone: spelling fail today :P
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