Status Meetings:2006-09-18:Log

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12:03 < froodian> i can't do tuesdays at this time
12:03 < ardissone|away> http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2006-09-18
12:03  * pinkerton repeats for ss
12:03 < pinkerton> hey, can we move this to tuesdays? mondays are really bad for me this fall 
                   because of my class
12:03 <@ss> Yes.
12:03 < froodian> could it be later?
12:04 < froodian> like, 11 PDT?
12:04 <@ss> Not if we want Europe...
12:04 < froodian> how about wednesday then?
12:04 < froodian> i mean, i can just read the logs if i have to
12:04 < froodian> but i'd rather be able to make the meetings
12:05 <@ss> Wednesday work for everyone?
12:05 < delliott> Not at all, but there is not going ot be a happy medium
12:05 < pinkerton> yes, but not 11am PDT on wed ;)
12:05 -!- kreeger2 has joined #camino-mtg
12:05 < pinkerton> sorry i brought it up, i'll go back to my hole
12:05 <@ss> No... 9am PDT on Wed.
12:05 <@ss> Does that work?
12:06 < delliott> Not for me, but if I am the only one it doesn't work for then it's ok.
12:06 < mento> will it remain on PDT when the rest of the country goes back to standard time? :)
12:06 <@ss> Haha
12:06 <@ss> No.
12:06 <@ss> Then it'll be PST.
12:06 < mento> then 9am PT shall suffice.  going once, going twice.
12:06 < ardissone|away> Bruce can't usually do other than Mondays, iirc
12:06 < ardissone|away> fwiw
12:06 < mento> today is monday.  where is bruce?
12:06 < kreeger2> works for me
12:07 < ardissone|away> dunno ;)
12:07 <@ss> Alright. Let's move on.
12:08 <@ss> So, first off.
12:08 <@ss> 1.1
12:09 <@ss> We have 122 bugs... how many do we want to land before we go to alpha?
12:09 <@ss> s/land/fix
12:09 <@ardissone|away> not numbers so much as "which areas"
12:09 <@ss> Right.
12:09 <@hwaara> popup blocker
12:09 <@ss> The big regressions have been fixed.
12:09 <@froodian> ^^ ++
12:10 <@ss> When you say "popup blocker" what do you mean?
12:10 <@hwaara> it needs way more polishing
12:10 <@ardissone|away> mostlty
12:10 <@hwaara> mostly interface changes
12:10 <@hwaara> but we can also throw in some enhancement, I suppose
12:10 <@hwaara> most of those RFEs are easy, iirc
12:10 <@ss> Does that include adding back the option to put it in the status bar?
12:10 <@ardissone|away> 9 bugs listed on my list
12:10 <@ss> Because that's bigger than the rest.
12:10 <@froodian> i'd really like it to
12:11 <@ss> I would do. But for alpha?
12:11 <@hwaara> yeah, I think cl has that bug?
12:11 <@froodian> because otherwise i'll spend all day long answering email about it
12:11 <@hwaara> froodian: yeah, we need to make it look good before release imho
12:11 <@ss> Why question is, can we ship without that change?
12:11 <@ss> s/Why/My
12:11 <@delliott> How many of the new 1.1 features do we want to land in the Alpha - which ones 
                  will need the most testing?
12:11 <@ardissone|away> ship a1, or final?
12:11 <@hwaara> ss: the pref?
12:11 <@ss> a1
12:11 <@ss> Not final
12:12 <@ss> hwaara: Yes
12:12 <@froodian> i can see the TUAW article bitching about it now
12:12 <@froodian> in my head
12:12 <@hwaara> I don't feel bad about that, but people who do should comment
12:12 <@ss> It's an _alpha_
12:12 <@ss> There will be things that people don't like.
12:12 <@hwaara> I mean, I like the popup blocker :)  it just needs more polish for me to be 
                happy, personally.
12:12 <@ss> That's what I'm saying... :)
12:12 <@ardissone|away> grr
12:12 <@froodian> well, i won't scream and yell if i'm the only one who feels it's important
12:12 <@froodian> (and ardissone|away)
12:13 <@hwaara> froodian: I think cl does too, no?
12:13 <@ardissone|away> cl will :P
12:13 <@kreeger2> i think it works better than before
12:13 <@kreeger2> since most users missed the popup icon down below
12:13 <@delliott> ss: What kind of state is the 1.1 branch in as we speak?
12:13 <@ss> He finds it important, but we're not scrapping the pref.
12:13 <@hwaara> if it looks good, less (new) users of it will be unhappy, I think
12:13 <@ss> delliott: I'm nots ure what your question is...
12:13 <@ardissone|away> delliott: locked down for rc
12:13 <@kreeger2> delliott: my 9-10 build seems good
12:13 <@ss> Yeah, the 1.8 branch has been locked down.
12:13 <@ardissone|away> gecko shouldn't be changing much from now on
12:14 <@hwaara> are we releasing 1.x from 1.8?
12:14 <@froodian> yes
12:14 <@ss> yesw
12:14 <@ss> yes*
12:14 <@delliott> ss: I meant to ask how does the Camino side of the 1.1 branch look? Are there 
                  any new features in there already?
12:14 <@hwaara> k
12:14 <@froodian> delliott: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2006-09-18
12:14 <@kreeger2> sounds like a good time to get around to a alpha
12:14 <@froodian> err, rather
12:14 <@hwaara> delliott: there's no 1.1-branch
12:14 <@froodian> http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Release_Notes_1.1
12:14 <@hwaara> there's a 1.8-gecko branch, and a "trunk"
12:14 <@hwaara> camino is equal on both
12:14 <@ss> *sigh*
12:15 <@ardissone|away> http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/User:Sardisson/Camino_1.1#Major_New_User-Facing_Features_in_Camino_1.1
12:15 <@ss> delliott: All of these changes we've been landing... they're going to be in 1.1
12:15 <@ss> And yes. There's tons.
12:15 <@hwaara> btw, seems like most people agreed in #camino that the new release will be big 
                enough for us to go 1.5
12:15 <@hwaara> or at least something bigger than 1.1
12:15 <@ss> Let's not talk about versioning yet... :)
12:15 <@hwaara> ok
12:15 <@hwaara> let's bring it up at some meeting
12:16 <@ss> Put it on the agenda for next week.
12:16 <@hwaara> before 1.1 is set in stone on all wiki pages :P
12:16 <@ss> I really think we're close to a1
12:16 <@delliott> For the people who play with 1.8 branch at the moment, does it warrant being 
                  released as an Alpha, as is?
12:16 <@froodian> i guess i'm ok with not adding the pref for a1.  but the popup blocker 
                  definately needs attentikno before it
12:16 <@ss> I think we could ship it tomorrow if we wanted to, even with some issues.
12:16 <@delliott> ss: That is what I was trying to get to.
12:16 <@ardissone|away> we need to get more testing in the field, yes
12:16 <@ss> So, let's say "popup bar clean up" then release.
12:16 <@ss> Any complaints?
12:17 <@hwaara> if smorgan is gonna revamp keychain soon, I don't think it's good to release a1 
                before it
12:17 <@ss> I do.
12:17 <@ardissone|away> it'd be nice, for conisistency's sake, to get bug 342780, too
12:17 <@ss> We can always have an a2
12:17 <@hwaara> that needs testing though
12:17 !sand.mozilla.org ss invited thebot into the channel.
12:17 -!- thebot has joined #camino-mtg
12:17 <@smorgan> Why would keychain matter?
12:17 <@hwaara> if it's a big rewrite
12:17 <@ss> bug 342780
12:17 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=342780 nor, --, Camino1.1, 
                stridey@gmail.com, ASSI, Cmd and Shift modifiers for "View Image" don't work 
                when pushing command after opening context menu
12:17 <@smorgan> User's won't know it's different
12:17 <@ardissone|away> er, that's not the one i meant, but that, too
12:17 <@hwaara> smorgan: yes, but we need QA
12:17 <@smorgan> Unless they are on Intel and like looking at raw keychain items
12:17 <@ss> ardissone|away: I see that as less important.
12:17 <@hwaara> lots of users testing for regressions
12:17 <@delliott> smorgan: Hot stuff!
12:18 <@ss> hwaara: We can have an a2.
12:18 <@froodian> he meant bug 290212
12:18 <@ardissone|away> the one where open in new tabs, doesn't
12:18 < thebot> froodian: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290212 enh, --, 
                Camino1.1, stridey@gmail.com, NEW, Implement bookmark folders' "Open in 
                Tabs"/"Open in New Tabs" with alternate menu items
12:18 <@delliott> OR an a7 :)
12:18 <@ss> I still see that as less important as well.
12:18 <@hwaara> ss, delliott: or we can just wait a few days :P
12:18 <@ss> It's not a regression, is it?
12:18 <@froodian> it is since 1.0.x
12:18 <@ardissone|away> yes
12:18 <@delliott> http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2006-09-18
12:18 <@ss> Ah... k
12:18  * ss wonders why the bug number is so low.
12:19 <@froodian> i morphed it
12:19 <@froodian> sorry
12:19 <@ardissone|away> GetCEMK broke it
12:19 <@ss> Awesome.
12:19 <@ss> So.
12:19 <@ardissone|away> but that bug will fix it
12:19 <@ss> I'll ask again
12:19 <@ss> Does everyone feel comfortable with launching an a1 soon?
12:19 <@delliott> Aye
12:19 <@ss> As in, a week, maybe a little more
12:19 <@ardissone|away> by the end of the month
12:19 <@ss> pinkerton: ^^
12:19 <@hwaara> end of month sounds good
12:20 <@pinkerton> sure. what do we want to do about the popup blocker issue?
12:20 <@ss> Those are what we're going to fix before it.
12:20 <@ss> Some cleanup to the popup blocker are all that blocks release.
12:20 <@ss> (Of the alpha, not final)
12:20 <@hwaara> jon hicks' design mockups looked great
12:20 <@hwaara> (some of them ;) )
12:20 <@pinkerton> ok
12:20 <@kreeger2> which bug is hicks mockup on?
12:20 <@ss> hwaara: We're not there yet.
12:20 <@ardissone|away> heh
12:21 <@froodian> we'll get there
12:21 <@ss> One thing at a time please.
12:21 <@pinkerton> can i also suggest we rename the "Unblock" button to "Show popup" ?
12:21 <@ardissone|away> i didn't like any :P
12:21 <@pinkerton> osrry
12:21 <@pinkerton> i'll shut up
12:21 <@ardissone|away> Yes :)
12:21 <@ss> Isn't that in a bug?
12:21 <@ardissone|away> there's a bug, i think
12:21 <@pinkerton> ok 
12:21 <@ss> Next
12:21 <@hwaara> pinkerton: maybe we can clarify it when there'll be a popupmenu
12:21 <@ss> All you devs needs to focus on 1.1 bugs.
12:21 <@ss> No more straying!
12:21 <@ss> ;)
12:22 <@ss> But an all seriousness, we need to get that number down so we can release.
12:22 <@kreeger2> give me a list of the most important stuff and I will work on them
12:22 <@ss> The more focus we have on 1.1, the better off we'll be.
12:22 <@hwaara> kreeger2: there's a list on the wiki
12:22 <@ss> The only large change I'd like (after a1, I mean) is Software Update.
12:22 <@ss> And that's still "potential"
12:22 <@ardissone|away> kreeger2: http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/User:Sardisson/Camino_1.1
12:23 <@hwaara> that's a huge amount of work, I think, ss
12:23  * ss notes that we've been linking to the same pages a lot.
12:23 <@ss> It shouldn't be.
12:23 <@ss> bsmedberg said it really shouldn't be.
12:23 <@hwaara> why not?
12:23 <@hwaara> ok
12:23 <@ss> They made the system so we could use it.
12:23 <@ss> Next
12:23 <@hwaara> has anyone except Firefox/thunderbird tried it yet though?
12:23 <@hwaara> Songbird?
12:23 <@ss> Everyone welcome Hicks if you see him on IRC.
12:23 <@ss> Flock does it.
12:23 <@delliott> Willdo
12:23 <@froodian> Hicks+++ :)
12:23 <@ss> He might be joining IRC from time to time.
12:24 <@hwaara> Flock just rips off the source though ;)
12:24 <@ss> But mostly he'll be just posting to bugs.
12:24 <@ss> He's very very very eager to help out
12:24 <@froodian> :D
12:24 <@ardissone|away> :)
12:24 <@delliott> Great to hear :)
12:24 <@ss> And has some great interface changes he wants to propose for our next major release 
            after 1.1
12:25 <@ss> But right now, he's focusing on 1.1 bugs, like everyone should be. :)
12:25 <@ss> We also have a new contributor as of yesterday.
12:25 <@ss> bug 308062
12:25 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=308062 min, --, Camino1.1,
                camino@seanmurph.com, NEW, Trust CA dialogue: "trust this certif for" options 
                text is cut off
12:25 <@ss> Sean Murphy seems fairly eager to help as well
12:25 <@delliott> Excellent
12:25 <@ss> So be sure to welcome him and treat him well.
12:25 <@ss> :)
12:25 <@froodian> (and seems competent too)
12:25 <@ss> Yeah, he does.
12:25 <@ardissone|away> always a plus :)
12:25 <@ss> Which is a Good Thing (tm)
12:26 <@ss> And finally (for 1.1), smorgan is going to get that Keychain rewrite going.
12:26 <@ss> And I'm sure we're all happy to have smorgan contributing patches again. :)
12:26 <@pinkerton> :D
12:26 <@ardissone|away> it won't fix the user-facing bugs, but we'll be halfway there :)
12:26 <@ss> So, moving on to 1.0.3
12:26 <@ss> We released.
12:26 <@ss> yay
12:26 -!- kreeger has quit [Connection reset by peer]
12:26 <@delliott> Beer!
12:26 <@ss> It went down without any real hitch.
12:26 <@ss> Gecko had their problems
12:27 <@ss> But we managed to make it happen in spite of them.
12:27 <@ss> mento: We need to you land one more patch on that branch
12:27 <@ss> mento: bug 337750
12:27 <@ardissone|away> big thanks to l10n for the quick turn-around
12:27 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=337750 cri, P2, Camino1.1, 
                nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, bookmarks-corrupted-n.plist often written as empty file
12:27 <@froodian> the patch that's marked "obsolete"
12:27 <@ss> If we can get that logging in on the branch it'll help.
12:27 <@ss> Really?
12:27 <@mento> the logging one
12:27 <@ss> Yes.
12:28 <@mento> which one?
12:28 <@ardissone|away> yes, we want a one-off with the superlogging
12:28 -!- kreeger has joined #camino-mtg
12:28 <@ardissone|away> the "obsolete" one
12:28 <@ss> mento: Apparently the one that's marked obsolete. :)
12:28 <@froodian> the obsolete patch is superlogging.  since there won't be a release off that 
                  branch, it can land
12:28 <@mento> okok
12:28 <@ss> So land it, get a build out, then we can get the tbox back on 1.8.0
12:29 <@ardissone|away> what about 104?
12:29 <@ardissone|away> nm
12:29 <@ss> 1.0.4 will be "whenever"
12:29 <@ss> Probably in a Gecko rev or 2.
12:29 <@ardissone|away> that branch = 1.0.3 minbranch
12:29 <@ardissone|away> ian was confusing me
12:29 <@ss> mento: Did you email Jay about talkback by chance?
12:29 <@froodian> sorry
12:30 <@mento> ss: no
12:30 <@ss> So someone should do that.
12:30 <@ss> I can.
12:30 <@ss> Or ardissone|away?
12:30 <@ardissone|away> mento: i can do that, if you'd like
12:30 <@ss> We have a volunteer!
12:30 <@ss> Going once, going twice...
12:30 <@ss> Sold.
12:30 <@mento> ardissone|away: sure, go for it
12:30 <@delliott> Well volunteered!
12:30 <@ardissone|away> k
12:30 <@mento> if you don't want it, i'll do
12:30 <@ardissone|away> it's np for me
12:31 <@ss> Also, the SeaMonkey guys want a list of files we use in XPFE.
12:31 <@ss> mento: This is kind of for you too.
12:31 <@froodian> [10:51am] <mento> ha
12:31 <@froodian> [10:51am] <mento> lots of stuff that winds up in the jars
12:31 <@ss> They want to be careful not to break us
12:31  * ss laughs
12:31 <@mento> ss, froodian: patch landed on CAMINO_1_0_3_MINIBRANCH, build from that branch to 
               get the logging
12:31 <@mento> lots of stuff that winds up in the jars.
12:31 <@froodian> mento: k, ty :)
12:31 <@hwaara> I think if only autocomplete is the xpfe dependency, I think we can remove it 
                easily
12:31 <@ss> mento: The tbox will produce one more build, right?
12:31 <@hwaara> mento: is autocomplete all we use in xpfe?
12:31 <@ss> I doubt it.
12:32 <@mento> ss: not unless you ask me to make it produce another build
12:32 <@ss> mento: Can you please make it produce another build?
12:32 <@mento> certainly!
12:32 <@ss> Excellent!
12:32 <@froodian> :)
12:32 <@ardissone|away> :)
12:32 <@ss> Our queue is a bit backlogged again...
12:33 <@mento> next build will be 1.0.3+superlogging
12:33 -!- hwaara has quit [Quit: hwaara]
12:33 <@ss> And a lot of those bugs need to land so that their dependent bugs can be worked on.
12:33 <@ss> I'm looking at you pinkerton.
12:33  * ss hands pinkerton 
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/request.cgi?action=queue&requester=&product=Camino&type=superreview&group=type
12:33 <@ardissone|away> biesi's patch needs sr so he'll keep fixing what he breaks ;)
12:34 <@ss> Yeah, that's important.
12:34 <@ss> mento: You looked at biesi's patch too, right?
12:34 <@ss> bug 351492
12:34 <@mento> biesi writes many patches. which one?
12:34 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=351492 maj, --, ---, 
                cbiesinger@gmx.at, ASSI, HTTP authentication dialogs don't remember passwords, 
                not prefilled
12:34 <@ss> That one.
12:34 <@ardissone|away> mento was the original sr req
12:34 <@ss> The only Camino related one. :)
12:35 <@mento> yeah
12:35 <@pinkerton> feh, i'm busy!
12:35 <@mento> ok, sr+
12:35 <@ss> SR it?
12:35 <@ss> Awesome.
12:35 <@pinkerton> oh, fwiw, i'm out all next week on vacation
12:35 <@mento> i just wanted to know if it had been tested
12:35 <@ss> Sweet.
12:35 <@ss> We'll meet without you.
12:35 <@ss> And choose a new name for Camino.
12:35 <@froodian> :)
12:35 <@ss> Like "Pink Panther"
12:35 <@delliott> Ace
12:35 <@pinkerton> that's hot
12:35 <@mento> why is the trunk burning?
12:35 <@ardissone|away> biesi struggled through building camino on someone else's Mac to test it
12:35 <@froodian> it's monday :p
12:35 <@ardissone|away> it hasn't burned in a week :P
12:35 <@delliott> Tinderbox is always on fire.
12:36 <@ardissone|away> what did neil do?
12:36 <@ss> Gah
12:36 <@mento> mothorfuckor
12:36 <@ss> Back to the meeting!
12:36 <@ss> Let's do some specific bugs now.
12:36 <@ss> bug 340412
12:36 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340412 nor, --, ---, 
                stridey@gmail.com, ASSI, Protect (warn) against (accidentally) opening too many 
                tabs
12:36 <@ss> To expose the number or not to expose the number.
12:36 <@ss> That is the question.
12:36 <@mento> fine. i'll take my off-topic rants to #camino.
12:37 <@froodian> I think it's a good idea to expose how many = many since a) it doesn't take 
                  up any room and b) it avoids having to use obtuse language like "many"
12:37 <@ardissone|away> expose
12:37 <@ardissone|away> yeah
12:37 <@ss> I agree with that.
12:37  * pinkerton deletes a nasty email to the camino list
12:37 <@ss> pinkerton: How do you feel about exposing the number?
12:37 <@froodian> too bad hwaara isn't here to argue the other way...
12:37 <@froodian> or perhaps fortunately ;)
12:37 <@pinkerton> what do you mean "expose the number"?
12:37 <@pinkerton> you mean make it a pref?
12:38 <@smorgan> I want the pref, and I don't want 15, so I vote expose
12:38 <@froodian> pinkerton: like this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=238141
12:38 <@ardissone|away> it is  a pref
12:38 <@pinkerton> uh
12:38 <@pinkerton> no
12:38 <@ardissone|away> just giving that pref the UI
12:38 <@froodian> pinkerton: why no?
12:38 <@pinkerton> clutter
12:38 <@ss> Just giving UI to the number.
12:38 <@ss> We plan to have the pref anyway.
12:39 <@pinkerton> let's pick the right default
12:39 <@pinkerton> anyone who wants to change it alrady knows how
12:39 <@froodian> but how will people know what it is?
12:39 <@pinkerton> we'll tell them on our website
12:39 <@froodian> they see "warn with many" but they don't know what == many
12:39 <@delliott> deafault = (width of tab bar / width of tab) + 1
12:40 <@ss> We could make it dynamic based on the hidden pref?
12:40 <@pinkerton> i also don't quite understand what this pref is for
12:40 <@froodian> if it's dynamic, it might as well be exposed
12:40 <@smorgan> Dear god, no.  The number can't be variable
12:40 <@ardissone|away> the whole one, or the number one?
12:40 <@pinkerton> "are you sure you really want to do the thing you just told me to do"?
12:40 <@froodian> pinkerton: when opening a large url array (like tab groups)
12:40 <@froodian> it warns if it's over x tabs
12:40 <@ss> Alright...
12:40 <@delliott> In which situation would a person not want to open a those tabs?
12:40 <@pinkerton> right, but the user just told you to do that
12:41 <@smorgan> If you accidently open in tabs a folder with 100 bookmarks, it can be painful
12:41 <@froodian> if they hit cmd-1 accidentally
12:41 <@delliott> smorgan: That is the penalty that you pay!
12:41 <@pinkerton> should we ask them if they really want to render a page that's over 200k?
12:41 <@delliott> pinkerton: Yup
12:41 <@delliott> Somebody file a bug
12:42 <@delliott> http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Status_Meetings:2006-09-18
12:42 <@froodian> no need to be sarcastic
12:42 <@delliott> Damnit
12:42 <@froodian> we're trying to get shit done
12:42 <@froodian> opening very large url arrays can cause lengthy beachballing
12:42 <@froodian> and data loss
12:43 <@froodian> we should let the user decide to have a second chance if they want it
12:43 <@ss> I agree with that.
12:43 <@ardissone|away> (also, fwiw, fx already does this)
12:44  * mento goes to lunch
12:44 <@ardissone|away> if you don't want it, just turn it off
12:44 <@pinkerton> i'm not sure giving users the ability to edit the # of tabs is useful
12:44 <@froodian> well, no.  if you'd don't want it, don't turn it on
12:44 <@pinkerton> what user can tell you what # is too many?
12:44 <@froodian> it's off by default
12:44 <@ardissone|away> it varies by individual usage
12:45 <@ardissone|away> what you have in various groups, imo
12:45 <@ss> Right.
12:45 <@ss> For me, opening 100 tabs is normal.
12:45 <@smorgan> My usage is that I want this on, but I have a tab group I use all the time 
                 that has 17 items
12:45 <@ss> But for someone else, a tab group with 20 might be too many.
12:45 <@smorgan> So without a pref for the number, the pref for the waring is useless
12:45 <@froodian> the main thing in my eyes is that clutter is minimal and it doesn't add *any* 
                  extra space, and it clarifies the wording
12:46 <@delliott> smorgan's argument seems reasonable.
12:46 <@pinkerton> i just can't see any user knowing what to sset that to
12:46 <@ardissone|away> what froodian said
12:46 <@ardissone|away> we set it to 15 by default
12:46 <@ardissone|away> and then it's easy for the user to cahnge if he fallss oin the wrong 
                        side
12:46 <@froodian> if the user doesn't know, they don't touch it
12:46 <@ardissone|away> e.g., smorgan's use-case
12:46 <@froodian> like history length
12:47 <@pinkerton> i'm not a fan of that pref either
12:49 <@delliott> For the people who want to use this preference, being able to set it will be 
                  important to them.
12:49 <@smorgan> How much feedback has there been wanting this pref?
12:49 <@froodian> little to none.  but it's not in a release of Fx yet.
12:49 <@froodian> once it is, we might see some
12:50 <@pinkerton> i don't think "firefox does it" is a reason to add features nobody has been 
                   asking for already
12:50  * froodian looks at the popup blocker ;)
12:50 <@froodian> sorry, had to mention it
12:51 <@froodian> i'm ok with not exposing the number, but i really don't know how to word it
12:51 <@smorgan> So just document the pref on the magic page, and don't put UI for it unless 
                 there's a need
12:51 <@froodian> in a way that would mean anything to anybody
12:51 <@pinkerton> then you get to come explain to my girlfriend how to tell that someone 
                   blocked a popup ;)
12:51 <@smorgan> I'm against the pref without the number; I think it should be both or neither
12:51 <@froodian> pinkerton: ;)
12:51 <@ardissone|away> (all we need to do is give her lots of tab groups....)
12:51 <@pinkerton> ff provides a text field, i assume?
12:51 <@kreeger2> the pref could be dangerous
12:51 <@froodian> i'm fine with neither - it's what my first patch did
12:52 <@kreeger2> what if someone types in -1 or 0 or 100?
12:52 <@froodian> we'd limit the text field
12:52 <@froodian> in fact, my patch does
12:52 <@froodian> like history
12:52 <@froodian> positive numbers only.  100 would be fine.
12:53 <@ss> So... was anything decided? :)
12:53 <@smorgan> Is there any argument against supporting it but without UI?
12:53 <@ss> pinkerton: ^^
12:53 <@ardissone|away> which, the main pref or the number pref?
12:54 <@froodian> both
12:54 <@smorgan> No UI at all
12:54 <@smorgan> If you set the hidden pref, Camino would respect it
12:54 <@pinkerton> that's what i'd suggest
12:54 <@pinkerton> if and when we get a lot of requests, we can add it
12:54 <@froodian> k. sounds like a decision.
12:54 <@froodian> next?
12:54 <@ardissone|away> k
12:55 <@ardissone|away> scroll icons
12:55 <@ss> Yes.
12:55 <@ardissone|away> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=238812
12:55 <@ss> For delliott's patch.
12:55 <@ss> (Which delliott needs to finish) ;)
12:55 <@ss> pinkerton: What do think of the selections in that attachment?
12:55 <@ardissone|away> we shouldn't make the scroll buttons look like the active tab
12:56 <@pinkerton> sweet jesus
12:56 <@ardissone|away> so nothing in column2
12:56 <@pinkerton> i sorta like the gradient, but can't tell how busy it would look
12:57 <@pinkerton> that and no other button looks like that
12:57 <@froodian> it might look weird with a bookmarks bar
12:57 <@froodian> imo
12:57 <@ss> And which of the arrow styles are we leaning toward?
12:57 <@ardissone|away> yeah
12:57 <@ss> I'm a fan of 4/9/14
12:57 <@froodian> me too
12:58 <@ss> ardissone|away, pinkerton: ?
12:58 -!- desmond has joined #camino-mtg
12:58 < desmond> Gah
12:58 <@pinkerton> did all the << 's get tossed or were they not considred?
12:58 <@ardissone|away> 1/foo or 4/foo
12:58 < desmond> Host died.
12:58 <@ss> They weren't considered
12:58 <@froodian> << would imply different behavior, no?
12:58 <@ardissone|away> they're overflow menu-specific
12:58 <@ss> Right
12:58 <@ss> They imply different behavior.
12:59 <@ardissone|away> this is a pseudo-scollbar
12:59 <@ss> If we're changing our behavior,w e shouldn't use the same icon.
12:59 <@smorgan> Then why not 1/6/11, which looks essentially like a scroll bar arrow?
12:59 <@ss> timeless checked in a potential fix, btw.
12:59 < desmond> I'm quite keen to use <- -> and slide by width just like OS X applications are 
                 moving to.
12:59 -!- kreeger2_ has joined #camino-mtg
12:59 <@froodian> desmond: don't talk about behavior now.
13:00  * ss concurs
13:00 <@froodian> three months after everybody settled down on something
13:00 <@pinkerton> dashboard uses closest to 5/10/15
13:00 <@ss> I think the arrows look weird withour current behavior.
13:00 <@ardissone|away> but we're not scrollling like dashboard, aiui
13:00 <@ss> 5/10/15 look very weird to me.
13:00 <@smorgan> 2/7/12 looks more like dashboard to me
13:01 <@ss> thin and "stringy" or something...
13:01 <@pinkerton> oh right, sorry
13:01 < desmond> 2/7/12 is Dashboard-esque.
13:01 <@pinkerton> yeah, i missed that
13:01 <@ardissone|away> imo it's 1/foo or 4/foo
13:01 <@ardissone|away> ;)
13:01 < desmond> As well as iTunes store esque
13:01 <@smorgan> I think row 1 for single-tab, row 2 for full-width
13:01 <@ss> I could agree with 1/6/11
13:01 <@ss> The only concern I have
13:01 <@ss> Is the small target area
13:01 <@pinkerton> was just typing that
13:01 <@ss> smaller*
13:01 < desmond> It is tiny.
13:02 -!- kreeger2 has quit [Ping timeout]
13:02 -!- kreeger2_ is now known as kreeger2
13:02 <@pinkerton> would "2" look too much like the back button?
13:02 <@ardissone|away> make it larger?
13:02 <@ss> Yeah, 2 might.
13:02 <@ardissone|away> more like disclosure-triange size?
13:02 <@ss> We can just have Hicks make 1 larger.
13:02 <@pinkerton> maybe you could make it larger and curved like the horizontal scroll arrows 
                   at each end
13:02 <@pinkerton> on a scrollbar
13:03 <@ss> More aqua ish?
13:03 <@ss> (Now that Apple is moving away from that...)
13:03 <@ss> ;)
13:03 <@pinkerton> you know how the ends curve into the scroll thumb?
13:03 <@froodian> or curved like the way the scrollbar buttons are to accomidate the scroll 
                  thumb?
13:04 <@froodian> what would they fit into though?
13:04 <@pinkerton> maybe add soemthin like that to the side that touches the tabs to blend it 
                   in more
13:04 <@froodian> would the left/rightmost tab be curved?
13:04 <@pinkerton> not sure, just tossing out an idea
13:04  * ss really doesn't know what "curve" you're all talking about.
13:04 <@pinkerton> i like 1 or 2
13:04 < desmond> ss the curve that you get in Finder
13:04 <@ss> I like a larger version of 1.
13:04 <@ardissone|away> ^^^
13:05 <@ss> I really kind of like 4, but 1 would work for me.
13:05 < desmond> Do we want the button to stick out against the tab bar?
13:05 <@froodian> http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7024/picture1er8.png
13:05 <@froodian> ss: ^
13:05 <@ss> Oh, that.
13:05 <@ss> Err... I'm not sure I like that. :)
13:06 <@ss> So row 1?
13:06 -!- kreeger2 has quit [Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0b2/2006082101]]
13:06 <@ss> Larger.
13:06 <@pinkerton> just tossing out an idea ;)
13:06 <@ss> Sure
13:06 <@ss> I'll give feedback to Hicks
13:06 <@ss> He can come back with a couple more.
13:06 <@ss> Which "background" do we like?
13:06 <@froodian> i like left
13:06 <@pinkerton> first column, i think
13:06 <@pinkerton> the 3rd column looks like the depressed image
13:07 <@ardissone|away> currently the button takes its bg from the bar (i.e., 1st column)
13:07 < desmond> Middle looks like a rollover
13:07 <@pinkerton> but the lighting is totally wrong
13:07 < desmond> ss, can we ask for more of 1 and 2 ?
13:07 <@froodian> -> class.  see my most recent comment in Bug 331331 for how i feel when we 
                  get there
13:07 <@ardissone|away> if we continue to just make it take its bg from the bar, we can hook up
                        hover, etc
13:07 < thebot> froodian: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331331 nor, --, 
                Camino1.1, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Change popup blocker's color
13:07 -!- froodian is now known as froodian|class
13:08 <@ss>  So, #1, larger, and maybe with a scroll thing.
13:08 <@ss> The curvy thing, I mean.
13:08 <@ss> Next?
13:08 <@ardissone|away> maybe ;)
13:08 <@ss> I'll talk to Hicks
13:08 <@ss> He'll get us new graphics.
13:08 <@ardissone|away> bug 352922
13:08 < thebot> ardissone|away: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=352922 min, 
                --, Camino1.1, alqahira@mindspring.com, NEW, Override some generic strings in 
                netError.dtd and config.dtd with "Camino"
13:08  * smorgan heads to work
13:08 -!- smorgan has quit [Quit: smorgan]
13:09 <@ardissone|away> make us suck a little less
13:09 <@ardissone|away> Which method should we employ? "live replacement" or check-in 
                        pre-modified files?
13:09 <@ss> I say checkin
13:09 <@ss> But I don't know why.
13:09 <@ardissone|away> checkin is simpler, but on live branches we'll have to keep an eye out 
                        for string changes
13:10 <@ss> But I guess I'm hoping for a "real" fix on trunk.
13:10 <@ardissone|away> heh
13:10 <@ardissone|away> not gonna happen :P
13:10 <@ss> And if we're just doing a quick change on the branch, those strings have been 
            frozen.
13:10 <@ss> Optimism.
13:10 <@ardissone|away> right, on the branch it's fine now
13:11 <@ss> On the 1.8 branch.
13:11 < kreeger> bbl
13:11 -!- kreeger has quit [Quit: kreeger]
13:11 <@ardissone|away> i don't forsee lots of changes, truthfully
13:11 <@ardissone|away> but it's a consideration
13:12  * ardissone|away wishes there were a way to "tag" files and have cvs email you when they 
          get changed
13:12 <@ss> I say stick with 1.
13:12 <@ss> Pray and moan for a better solution for trunk.
13:12 <@ardissone|away> and do nothing in the meantime?
13:12 <@ss> Hm?
13:12 <@ss> Isn't doing 1 doing something?
13:13 <@ardissone|away> 1 is live replacement
13:13 <@ss> Err
13:13 <@ardissone|away> i'm all confused
13:13 <@ardissone|away> ss: :/ :P
13:13 <@ss> "2) Do a "live replacement""
13:13 <@ss> ...
13:13 <@ardissone|away> no wonderd
13:13 <@ss> You're killing me here...
13:14 <@ss> ;)
13:14 <@ardissone|away> different order in the bug and wiki  :/
13:14 <@ss> Ah
13:14 <@ardissone|away> k
13:14 <@ss> So 1 in the bug.
13:14 <@ss> It's easy, it's doable
13:14 <@ss> It's here
13:14 <@ss> It's now.
13:14 <@ss> a=me
13:14 <@ss> Finally
13:14 <@ss> The bug you've all been waiting for.
13:14 <@ss> bug 331331
13:14 < thebot> ss: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331331 nor, --, Camino1.1, 
                nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Change popup blocker's color
13:14 <@ss> pinkerton: We need a decision on this today.
13:15 <@ardissone|away> everyone's gone
13:15 <@ss> pinkerton: Hicks uploaded some images.
13:15 <@ss> I care most about pinkerton's decision.
13:15 <@ss> :)
13:15 <@ardissone|away> they're all bad imo ;)
13:15 <@pinkerton> looking
13:15 <@ss> Read the last comment too.
13:15 <@ss> comment 12, btw.
13:16 <@ardissone|away> i find them all hard to read
13:16 <@ss> Even the yellow one?
13:16 <@ss> ;)
13:16 <@pinkerton> i don't understand what the extended blocker is
13:17 <@ss> Right, so look at the attachments in the bug?
13:17 <@ss> The non-Hicks one.
13:17 <@ardissone|away> yellow's not as good as what we have now
13:17 < desmond> The faded yellow looks nice :)
13:18 <@ardissone|away> though frankly, once i don't have to see the bar ever again, i won't 
                        care
13:18 <@ardissone|away> i don't think we can reasonably do the extended bar for 1.1
13:19 <@ss> pinkerton: ?
13:19 <@pinkerton> what?
13:19 <@pinkerton> i only see blue
13:19 <@pinkerton> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331331
13:19 < thebot> pinkerton: Bug 331331 nor, --, Camino1.1, nobody@mozilla.org, NEW, Change popup 
                blocker's color
13:19 <@ss> Comment 12
13:20 <@pinkerton> ohhh
13:20 <@pinkerton> feh
13:21 <@ss> And just for you: http://www.adggda.com/~ss/camino/mockups/
13:21 <@ss> Uploading...
13:21 <@pinkerton> i got it
13:21 <@ss> Done.
13:21 <@ss> k
13:21 <@pinkerton> i like the idea of the glassy
13:21 <@pinkerton> or the gradient
13:22 <@ss> I do as well.
13:22 <@pinkerton> firefox uses gray, but that seems lame to me
13:22 <@ss> But at the same time
13:22 <@ardissone|away> i think glassy looks really out of place
13:22 <@ss> Do think it's worth "extending" the tab?
13:22 <@ss> Fx 2 won't use grey.
13:23 <@ss> It's yellowish.
13:23 <@pinkerton> i still dont know what "exteded" means
13:23 <@ss> With a blue alert icon.
13:23 <@ardissone|away> pinkerton: the last 3 attachments on the bug
13:23 <@pinkerton> looks the same to me
13:23 <@ardissone|away> blue alert icon? ew
13:23 <@ss> It's different.
13:23 <@pinkerton> what am i missing?
13:23 <@ss> pinkerton: You see how the tab doesn't "end"
13:23 <@ardissone|away> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=226107
13:23 <@ss> And instead the "end" of it is below the popup blocker
13:24 <@pinkerton> oh
13:24 <@ss> Yeah, that attachment shows it best.
13:24 <@ss> The alert is now tied to the tab.
13:24 <@pinkerton> makes sense to me
13:24 <@ardissone|away> can/should we do that for 1.1?
13:24 <@ss> Would that be better than Hicks' ideas?
13:24 <@ss> Or should we go with Hicks' stuff for 1.1
13:24 <@ss> And look at it later?
13:24 <@pinkerton> seems like we have more important things
13:25 <@ss> So, change the color for now
13:25 <@ss> Attach it to the tab later
13:25 <@ss> Right?
13:25 <@pinkerton> right
13:26 <@ss> And which of Hicks' ideas do you like?
13:26 <@ss> Or do you want him to create more?
13:26 <@ss> It will involve changing code either way, since right now it's just one color set 
            in code.
13:27 <@ss> Adding a gradient involves code changes.
13:27 <@pinkerton> i don't like the light blue
13:27 <@pinkerton> i hate the red
13:27 <@ss> I hate the red too.
13:27 <@pinkerton> i like the dark (black and blue) but i think they're still overpowering to
                   the content
13:27 < desmond> You love the faded mustard colour, don't you? ;)
13:27 <@pinkerton> we want it visible, but not the focal point of the content area
13:27 <@ss> So tone down the black and blue?
13:27 <@ss> And post new mockups.
13:28 <@ss> Also, with an icon or without?
13:28 <@pinkerton> not sure how you'd tone it down w/out making it some sickly turquoise color
13:28 <@pinkerton> an icon might be nice if it fits in with the bg. the yellow really sticks out
13:28 <@ss> k
13:28 <@ss> I'll let Hicks figure out how to tone it down. ;)
13:28 <@ardissone|away> do we want to start color-coordinating alert icons :P
13:28 <@pinkerton> heh
13:29 <@ardissone|away> gah, i'm in such a bad mood today :(
13:29 <@ardissone|away> sorry everyone
13:29 < desmond> Colour co-ordinated alert icons might be a good idea.
13:30 < desmond> They will still be easy to see and wont stick out.
13:30 <@ardissone|away> so alret is sometimes yellow, sometimes blue? :P
13:30 <@ardissone|away> next green and chartruse>?
13:30 -!- ardissone|away is now known as ardissone|grr
13:30 <@ss> We'll let the designer design and see what he gives us.
13:31 < desmond> ardissone|grr, have some tea :)
13:31 <@ss> It might be that he creates a "popup block" graphic instead of using anything like 
            the alert icon.
13:31 <@ardissone|grr> :)
13:31 <@ss> Alright, this meeting of four people, is adjorned (sp?).
13:31 < desmond> u
13:32 < thebot> Suggestions for 'adjorned': adjourned, adjoined, adorned, edge-grained, 
                adjourns, adjured, adjourn...
13:32 <@ss> See you all next week.
13:32 <@ardissone|grr> on Weds
13:32 <@ss> On Wednesday, yes.
13:32 < desmond> Good meeting all, lots of chat
13:32  * desmond kicks delliott in the face
13:32 < desmond> Slacker
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