Status Meetings:2007-12-19:Log

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[01:42am] You were promoted to operator by chanserv.
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[03:37am] sauron left the chat room. (Quit: sauron)
[12:00pm] smorgan joined the chat room.
[12:05pm] You are now known as ardissone|foraging.
[12:05pm] smorgan was promoted to operator by you.
[12:05pm] pinkerton joined the chat room.
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[12:05pm] peeja joined the chat room.
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[12:06pm] ardissone|foraging: bbias
[12:06pm] pinkerton: i cleared my sr list, btw
[12:06pm] pinkerton: goes to try to find something for the holiday party
[12:06pm] smorgan: Yeah, I'm still the big problem these days 
[12:07pm] smorgan: I thought I would have time to do my big reviews since last meeting, but the large-enough blocks of time I had were pulled in other directions
[12:08pm] pinkerton: funny, you're not doing anything at work       
[12:08pm] pinkerton: ducks
[12:09pm] ardissone|foraging: like reviewing find bar and mento's 10 patches? 
[12:09pm] ardissone|foraging: speaking of
[12:09pm] smorgan: And fixing my crashes 
[12:09pm] ardissone|foraging: are we expecting him?
[12:10pm] smorgan: And dealing with bugzilla nonsense
[12:10pm] ardissone|foraging: gah, yeah
[12:12pm] ardissone|foraging: ok, everyone ready?
[12:12pm] mento joined the chat room.
[12:12pm] mento was promoted to operator by chanserv.
[12:12pm] ardissone|foraging: awesome
[12:12pm] ardissone|foraging: i'll take that as a "go" sign
[12:13pm] mento: go
[12:13pm] ardissone|foraging: first up
[12:13pm] ardissone|foraging: next week:
[12:13pm] ardissone|foraging: Dec 26, meet or no meet?
[12:13pm] smorgan: Not I
[12:13pm] ss: Not I
[12:13pm] ardissone|foraging: Not I
[12:13pm] mento: no
[12:13pm] ardissone|foraging: i believe that's a majority
[12:14pm] ardissone|foraging: No meeting next week; enjoy the day off
[12:14pm] ardissone|foraging: rolling right along
[12:14pm] ardissone|foraging: 1.6a1
[12:14pm] ardissone|foraging: released last Tuesday
[12:14pm] ardissone|foraging: so far i've heard nothing bad
[12:15pm] smorgan: Except it has the quit crash
[12:15pm] ardissone|foraging: nothing good, really, either
[12:15pm] ardissone|foraging: just nothing
[12:15pm] mento: best time to crash
[12:15pm] ardissone|foraging: except for the one guy who had the crash
[12:15pm] ardissone|foraging: there's now a link to the preview site from cbo/contribute
[12:15pm] smorgan: I suppose I should think about switching to branch for a while
[12:16pm] ardissone|foraging: we have something like 17 crashes there in a week
[12:16pm] ardissone|foraging: which, given we know we have the close-tabs-quit crasher
[12:17pm] ardissone|foraging: makes me wonder if we're not getting enough people?
[12:17pm] smorgan: Or they are all on Intel...
[12:17pm] ardissone|foraging: or that
[12:18pm] ardissone|foraging: yeah
[12:18pm] ardissone|foraging: sam might fix the Talkback report soon, but until then I've added a link to the manual query for the build
[12:18pm] smorgan: A reporter app is still one of my many top to-do's 
[12:18pm] pinkerton: one of the guys at work says he thinks that it's much more sluggish with multiple tabs open
[12:18pm] pinkerton: maybe the spinners?
[12:19pm] ardissone|foraging: doing some testing w/ and w/o is still one of my top to-dos 
[12:19pm] smorgan: I suspect we'll need to turn them back off for 1.6
[12:19pm] smorgan: I'll try same-thread and see if that is any better though
[12:19pm] smorgan: It may also just be psychologically slower
[12:20pm] pinkerton: i think tvl was seeing it actually be sluggish to respond
[12:20pm] ardissone|foraging: i've had the throbber on for ages, which should help me wrt pshchological, i think 
[12:20pm] smorgan: I'll certainly willing to believe it's real; just thinking out loud
[12:21pm] ardissone|foraging: mhm
[12:21pm] smorgan: It takes a lot longer to see favicons on loading tabs now
[12:22pm] ardissone|foraging: i just need to sit down with some test builds, but I've not had blocks of time
[12:22pm] ardissone|foraging: the other thing could be a real Tp regression that happened to coincide
[12:22pm] ardissone|foraging: i don't think the boxen agree, though
[12:23pm] ardissone|foraging: er, especially since branch Gecko has been closed
[12:23pm] smorgan: yeah, that seems very unlikely on branch
[12:23pm] ardissone|foraging: 1.6b1
[12:24pm] ardissone|foraging: last chance for new features
[12:24pm] ardissone|foraging: the P1s for 1.6 have pretty much all landed
[12:25pm] ardissone|foraging: at least their main parts
[12:25pm] ardissone|foraging: tab scrolling animation is the remaining one from the list
[12:25pm] mento: branch gecko is closed?
[12:25pm] mento: no more 1.8.1.12 chickens?
[12:25pm] ardissone|foraging: and i think we mostly agreed to punt
[12:25pm] ardissone|foraging: mento: no, it just opened
[12:25pm] mento: oh
[12:25pm] ardissone|foraging: 2 days ago or whatever
[12:26pm] mento: right
[12:26pm] ardissone|foraging: so it was closed when spinners landed
[12:26pm] mento: you were referring to history, then, ok
[12:26pm] mento: right right
[12:26pm] ardissone|foraging: mhm
[12:26pm] ardissone|foraging: P2s
[12:26pm] smorgan: I really need to finish my reviews so that stuff can be b1, which I still plan to do if at all possible
[12:27pm] ardissone|foraging: #  P2 Tab dragging (at least w/in a window)
[12:27pm] ardissone|foraging: # P2 Breakpad
[12:27pm] ardissone|foraging: # P2 Extensions folder (global and user)
[12:27pm] ardissone|foraging: # P2 Undo close tab (reopen tab)
[12:27pm] ardissone|foraging: the only one of the P2s I know is being worked on is dragging
[12:27pm] smorgan: I'm going to do a 1.6-version of undo close
[12:27pm] smorgan: Which won't be true undo
[12:27pm] ardissone|foraging: but "reopen" ?
[12:28pm] smorgan: Right, with the same kind of UI Firefox has
[12:28pm] smorgan: Which is a folder in history of "recently closed"
[12:28pm] ardissone|foraging: ah
[12:28pm] smorgan: I think that gets us 80+% of the benefit
[12:28pm] ardissone|foraging: yeah
[12:28pm] smorgan: It doesn't help the "oops, I was typing in that widow
[12:28pm] smorgan: but it gets the rest
[12:29pm] ardissone|foraging: if we have dragging, we get another 5-10% since you can put it back
[12:29pm] ardissone|foraging: where it came from
[12:29pm] smorgan: I'll file that as a new bug when I have it working, since I think a real undo would still be valuable so the existing bug can stay open
[12:29pm] ardissone|foraging: mhm
[12:30pm] ardissone|foraging: extensions folder going to miss the boat?
[12:30pm] smorgan: I've been giving that some thought
[12:30pm] smorgan: I'm not sure how to handle the permissions model given the changes in Leopard
[12:31pm] smorgan: I think re-opening ourselves to a security issue that Apple is closing (silent patching of user apps by something malicious) is a mistake
[12:31pm] smorgan: I think pushing that to 2.0 and giving it more though is probably the best bet at this point
[12:32pm] smorgan: Since Leopard didn't kill IMs outright, it's less urgent
[12:32pm] ardissone|foraging: as much as i'd like to easily disable them with TC, i agree
[12:32pm] smorgan: I could probably do a root-level version if we want to
[12:32pm] smorgan: For 1.6
[12:33pm] smorgan: If I'm inspired one day it'll show up, but for now let's assume it won't 
[12:33pm] ardissone|foraging: yeah, rather have you on other things 
[12:33pm] ardissone|foraging: mento: breakpad still a go for b1?
[12:33pm] mento: build side should be
[12:33pm] mento: gonna talk to ted
[12:34pm] ardissone|foraging: k
[12:34pm] ardissone|foraging: and you'll write client-side handlers
[12:34pm] mento: smorgan said he'd help with the sender, but yes
[12:34pm] ardissone|foraging: and smorgan will do the app
[12:34pm] ardissone|foraging: ?
[12:34pm] mento: rigt
[12:34pm] ardissone|foraging: ok
[12:35pm] ardissone|foraging: normally jeff would pipe in about his dragging tabs here
[12:35pm] ardissone|foraging: but yesterday he was still asleep for 2 more hrs
[12:36pm] ardissone|foraging: he did promise us a new patch yesterday after coffee and a bagel, but there must have been a giant coffee/bagel shortage 
[12:36pm] ardissone|foraging: he seems to feel he's close, though
[12:36pm] ardissone|foraging: how about our remaining 10.5 UI changes
[12:37pm] ardissone|foraging: how do we feel about them re 1.6?
[12:37pm] ardissone|foraging: (bookmark bar, tabs, toolbar icons)
[12:37pm] smorgan: Assuming we had a new UI, I'd be all for it 
[12:38pm] smorgan: It seems more and more like we need to redo tabs and the bookmark bar at the same time
[12:38pm] ardissone|foraging: yes
[12:38pm] ardissone|foraging: i think ss is the only dissenter on that
[12:38pm] smorgan: I'm happy to see a UI mock that proves otherwise 
[12:39pm] ardissone|foraging: so, unless someone really gets us some nice UI mocks, we'll leave the 10.5 stuff be for 1.6?
[12:40pm] smorgan: Unfortunately, it looks like it
[12:40pm] mento: i'm fine with that
[12:40pm] ardissone|foraging: so be it
[12:40pm] mento: provided we actually do it for 1.6
[12:40pm] mento: that's the last shot, i think
[12:40pm] ardissone|foraging: ?
[12:40pm] mento: the first mostlymajor version bump after leopard
[12:40pm] mento: we'd look bad if we didn't have it for 1.6
[12:41pm] smorgan: I think you agreed to the wrong thing then 
[12:41pm] mento: oh
[12:41pm] mento: then i disagree
[12:41pm] mento: i think my disagreement is summed up in my "We'd look bad" comment
[12:41pm] ardissone|foraging: i honestly don't think the current state of affairs is too bad
[12:42pm] mento: it's not too bad but it's stripey
[12:42pm] mento: you get used to it
[12:42pm] ardissone|foraging: not ideal, yes, but we haven't been ideal since 10.3
[12:42pm] mento: but it sticks out for sure when you switch between 10.4 and 10.5
[12:42pm] ss: I don't feel comfortable releasing 1.6 without fixing the bookmark bar and tab bar.
[12:42pm] smorgan: I agree with the fact that it would be unfortunate; I'm just not sure we can realistically do a new bar UI at this point
[12:43pm] mento: where the ui guys at
[12:43pm] ss: By "can" you mean "have man power / designers" right?
[12:44pm] ss: Let's do a call out
[12:44pm] ss: Post on a few blogs asking for help
[12:44pm] smorgan: We need a designer to create a new look, and we have to (assuming history is any guide) iterate on it before we can agree
[12:44pm] ss: And see if anyone comes.
[12:44pm] ss: If not, so be it
[12:45pm] ardissone|foraging: where new look ≠ safari
[12:45pm] smorgan: How about FF 3 instead? 
[12:45pm] smorgan: Oh wait...
[12:45pm] ardissone|foraging: sorry, i didn't know there was a fx3; i thought there was a mozilla version of Safari 
[12:46pm] ardissone|foraging: Apple Safari and Mozilla Safari 
[12:46pm] ardissone|foraging: anwyay
[12:46pm] smorgan: But cheap shots aside, sure a call out can't hurt
[12:46pm] ardissone|foraging: sam sounds like he volunteered
[12:46pm] ardissone|foraging: (after he fixes my talkback  )
[12:47pm] ardissone|foraging: we really do need a(nother) full-time designer
[12:47pm] ardissone|foraging: we can't keep pulling jeff off of coding 
[12:47pm] ss: Sure
[12:47pm] ss: I can do it.
[12:48pm] ardissone|foraging: 1.6b1 is l10n freeze, so all stings and nib changes must be in for that
[12:48pm] ardissone|foraging: if there are stray string/nib change bugs out there
[12:48pm] ardissone|foraging: please nominate them for b1
[12:49pm] ardissone|foraging: i'm going to try to start going through them and fixing what i can (post holidays)
[12:49pm] ardissone|foraging: anything else on 1.6?
[12:49pm] smorgan: When do we think we might ship it these days?
[12:49pm] smorgan: Late Jan?
[12:49pm] mento: yes
[12:49pm] ardissone|foraging: that's been my thought
[12:50pm] mento: nib changes?
[12:50pm] smorgan: crosses his fingers
[12:50pm] mento: need to redo that privacy thing
[12:50pm] ardissone|foraging: yeah
[12:50pm] pinkerton: what's the IM issue?
[12:50pm] ardissone|foraging: and Web Features, which is blocking batwood's Flashblock whitelist patch, i think
[12:50pm] ardissone|foraging: pinkerton: ?
[12:51pm] ardissone|foraging: oh, input managers
[12:51pm] pinkerton: yeah
[12:51pm] smorgan: what issue?
[12:51pm] pinkerton: that's what i was asking
[12:52pm] pinkerton: or is it extensions folder?
[12:52pm] smorgan: feels another comedy routine coming on
[12:52pm] pinkerton: something in the scrollback about leopard permissions
[12:52pm] pinkerton: and IME patching
[12:52pm] ardissone|foraging: heh
[12:52pm] smorgan: Oh, doing a profile-level extensions folder seems like less of a good idea to me now
[12:53pm] mento:                           
[12:53pm] smorgan: Because it re-opens the "haxxors r in ur app" hole
[12:53pm] mento: we already have a profile-level prefpane folder
[12:53pm] smorgan: I still want a loader, but I want to do it right
[12:53pm] smorgan: Sure, but they don't load until you open prefs 
[12:53pm] smorgan: Fair point
[12:54pm] smorgan: But the lack of auto-load and the fact that it's visible makes it somewhat less scary
[12:54pm] mento: how about npapi plugins?
[12:54pm] smorgan: hmm
[12:55pm] smorgan: Do they auto-load?
[12:55pm] mento: oh boy, i can never keep their init straight
[12:55pm] mento: they load at stupid times
[12:55pm] smorgan: heh, yeah
[12:55pm] ardissone|foraging: when quitting 
[12:55pm] ardissone|foraging: could we enforce the same permissions model in our profile folder folder?
[12:56pm] mento: don't load quarantined plugins!  
[12:56pm] smorgan: Root owned?
[12:56pm] smorgan: hah
[12:56pm] ardissone|foraging: yeah
[12:56pm] mento: i iz in ur foldor, settin ur attributez
[12:56pm] smorgan: Ew. I'd rather just have it /Library/Application Support if we do that
[12:56pm] smorgan: Anyway, I know we can come up with something, I'm just not sure 1.6 is the best time
[12:56pm] smorgan: Given everything else
[12:56pm] ardissone|foraging: right
[12:57pm] smorgan: And the fact that we care less than we thought we'd need to
[12:57pm] ardissone|foraging: hopes pink was reading along this time 
[12:57pm] pinkerton: ok
[12:58pm] ardissone|foraging: anything else on 1.6?
[12:59pm] ardissone|foraging: ok
[12:59pm] ardissone|foraging: ss: what's the latest on minibinus and minimayaTrunk?
[12:59pm] ss: minibinus is at the colo
[12:59pm] mento: but lost
[12:59pm] ss: Just needs IT to set it up
[12:59pm] ardissone|foraging:                           
[1:00pm] ss: Then it's ours to run with.
[1:00pm] hwaara joined the chat room.
[1:00pm] ss: That should be this week.
[1:00pm] ardissone|foraging: running 10.3.9?
[1:00pm] ss: minimaya01 is on my desk
[1:00pm] hwaara was promoted to operator by you.
[1:00pm] ss: Has to wait until the new year.
[1:00pm] ss: Yes.
[1:00pm] kreeger joined the chat room.
[1:00pm] kreeger was promoted to operator by you.
[1:00pm] ardissone|foraging: and cb-mini's ram situation?
[1:00pm] mento: ardissone|foraging: yes, 10.3.9
[1:00pm] ss: Which mini?
[1:01pm] ss: I think they're both 512
[1:01pm] ss: But honestly don't remember.
[1:01pm] ardissone|foraging: (i asked because sam mentioned installing 10.3.7)
[1:01pm] mento: cb-miniohessexzeroone
[1:01pm] ss: That's the disk that came with it.
[1:01pm] ardissone|foraging: the moco mini
[1:02pm] ardissone|foraging: the 10.5 box
[1:02pm] ardissone|foraging: which mento disabled Ts on for lack of ram
[1:02pm] ss: Oh
[1:02pm] ss: Not sure yet.
[1:02pm] mento: maybe also suck due to quartz extreme not loading because it has no monitor plugged in
[1:02pm] mento: but probably mostly the memory thing
[1:02pm] mento: maybe also suck due to quartz extreme not loading because it has no monitor plugged in
[1:02pm] mento: but probably mostly the memory thing
[1:03pm] ardissone|foraging: ok
[1:04pm] ardissone|foraging: it's somewhat less useful not running tests
[1:04pm] ardissone|foraging: so it would be good to figure out a plan
[1:05pm] ardissone|foraging: we cleared 20 bugs last week; 10 were mento and another 6-7 were smorgan 
[1:05pm] smorgan: I lose 
[1:05pm] mento: yeah, but i filed most of mine moments before fixing them
[1:05pm] ardissone|foraging: everyone congratulate pink on his first checkin since august 2006
[1:05pm] smorgan: yay pink!
[1:05pm] mento: smorgan: you probably did better things to the bug list
[1:06pm] ardissone|foraging: sadly, despite that fire, most of the same 15 bugs are sitting in the review queue
[1:06pm] ardissone|foraging: as last week
[1:06pm] mento: we ☑ find bar
[1:07pm] mento: hey, would it be sucky to make next and previous be ↑ and ↓?
[1:07pm] ardissone|foraging: if you're bored, or need to avoid relatives, or something
[1:07pm] mento: next and previous look so...firefox
[1:08pm] ardissone|foraging: please check out the review queue and steal a review (or do one, if you have one) 
[1:08pm] ardissone|foraging: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/request.cgi?action=queue&requester=&product=Camino&type=review&group=type
[1:08pm] ardissone|foraging: lastly on queues
[1:08pm] smorgan: Or do three if you are me!
[1:09pm] ardissone|foraging: Markus, our swedish translator and håkan's friend, has started sending us patches 
[1:09pm] ardissone|foraging: so yay Markus!
[1:09pm] ardissone|foraging: håkan promised to threaten him to keep sending them, or something like that
[1:09pm] mento: that's excellent
[1:10pm] ardissone|foraging: we've run long, but everyone have a look at Bug 408593 - Only check for the default browser once
[1:10pm] ardissone|foraging: and place your thoughts in the comments there
[1:10pm] ardissone|foraging: if you have thoughts
[1:11pm] mento: ardissone|foraging: wanted to also talk about 154580 but we're going over, so we can save it for the next meeting or we can just talk later in-channel
[1:11pm] ardissone|foraging: in think bug 406784 is back in smorgan's court, too  (the trunk no-bg/bleeding bug) :(
[1:12pm] smorgan: It is, and I know it
[1:12pm] ardissone|foraging: k
[1:12pm] ardissone|foraging: mento: yeah, later or next week
[1:12pm] mento: yes.  that is ugly.
[1:12pm] ardissone|foraging: anyone else with anything?
[1:12pm] smorgan: I just need some time for the debugger
[1:12pm] ardissone|foraging: !clone time-for-smorgan ;)
[1:13pm] ardissone|foraging: ok then
[1:14pm] ardissone|foraging: everyone have a good week, and happy holidays if you're that sort of person
[1:14pm] ardissone|foraging: :)
[1:14pm] smorgan: And miserable holidays if you prefer that sort of thing!
[1:14pm] ardissone|foraging: (the holiday-celebrating sort)
[1:14pm] hwaara: heh
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